A Fallible God
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14-01-2017, 09:48 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:39 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 09:22 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  "too insecure to have any integrity".

What am I supposed to do? Throw it all away??
It keeps me happy, I'll keep on holding on to my beliefs

Gotta call BS on this, at some level, you already understand it's a bunch of hooey, now all you're doing is going through the motions and pretending it's real.

But hey, even mother Teresa did that:

"Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear," she wrote the Rev. Michael van der Peet in September 1979.

Letting go is extremely difficult.. At this point.. Just trying to rationalize it all

Oh no. He's here - God
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14-01-2017, 10:04 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:48 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 09:39 AM)TheInquisition Wrote:  Gotta call BS on this, at some level, you already understand it's a bunch of hooey, now all you're doing is going through the motions and pretending it's real.

But hey, even mother Teresa did that:

"Jesus has a very special love for you. As for me, the silence and the emptiness is so great that I look and do not see, listen and do not hear," she wrote the Rev. Michael van der Peet in September 1979.

Letting go is extremely difficult.. At this point.. Just trying to rationalize it all

I can tell you from my own experience, I decided to stop trying to explain the ridiculous parts of the bible to myself and it was a great burden lifted, it wasn't something I had to explain to myself or anyone else.

I could simply say- yeah, it is BS.

Of course I had pulled myself out of church long ago and no one in my family was too surprised that I rejected religion. So the social cost wasn't too high, but I did lose a life long friend that was a fundamentalist.

Oh well, life goes on.....

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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14-01-2017, 10:27 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:46 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 09:35 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  What do you expect us to do?

YOU came here.
YOU expressed your beliefs.

I do not want to hold beliefs that are false.
You have expressed your beliefs and the reasons that you hold them.
I do not accept that your beliefs are true, nor are your reasons valid.
If you profess such beliefs and reasons here, people will point out the flaws.

What you do with your life is entirely your business.

I know that and that's why I came here.

I apologise for being a dickhead.. Back to it

No apologies necessary. Thumbsup

I don't think you were being a dickhead. I apologize if I gave that impression.

Help for the living. Hope for the dead. ~ R.G. Ingersoll

Freedom offers opportunity. Opportunity confers responsibility. Responsibility to use the freedom we enjoy wisely, honestly and humanely. ~ Noam Chomsky
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14-01-2017, 01:01 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 08:14 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 08:06 AM)mordant Wrote:  So it is omniscience you are throwing under the bus to achieve your theodicy.

In doing so you are also throwing omnipotence under the bus, because a god who is not all knowing is inherently not all-powerful.

By your own observations I don't think you really believe he's omnibenevolent either.

As a former fundamentalist I have problem seeing any point or utility in a god who is not at least one of those things (all loving, all knowing, all powerful) as to me now you are just dealing with a hapless being who is at best indifferent and at worst, an insufferable and cruel asshole. The most you can hope is that his presumably superior power might be used on your behalf more often than not, but it's up to his caprice and is damnably hard to predict. Oh wait, that's right: answered prayer is indistinguishable from random happenstance.

Which brings me back to the same question I've been asking myself: why DO you bother?

Why do I bother..

I worship him for one SINGULAR reason..
I was born a Christian..
My family was Christian

As for why I bother.. even when I could just do away with such beliefs.. I can't face the social pressure of leaving and I am not so unhappy that I feel compelled to leave.
Points for honesty.
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14-01-2017, 01:27 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:48 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  Letting go is extremely difficult.. At this point.. Just trying to rationalize it all
It might help to elucidate exactly why it is difficult. Is it entirely social pressure or what you imagine (rightly or not) to be horrible social consequences?

An example of what was a little difficult for me, for a short while, was that I could no longer indulge certain mental 'tics' that I had been acculturated to, such as firing off little "prayerlets" when I was concerned or anxious about someone's well-being (mine or others). That sort of prayer had made me feel like I was doing something about things I had no actual control over. Gradually I realized this didn't help, but was so habituated to it that I felt at loose ends because I had nothing to replace it with, at least not directly. What I learned to replace it with was acceptance of the actual situation, which is that it is up to all humans to take care of themselves. Which, when you actually come in sync with it, is actually a positive realization. We are not, after all, exactly helpless, and in those times when we are Shit Out Of Luck™, we are no more so without an imaginary deity than we are with one. And for me at least it was much better to realize that than to always be wondering what I did wrong or how I gave Satan freedom to act or how God might be testing me or teaching me in some way, yadda-yadda. My whole imaginary world, I was taught, was this indispensable thing when in fact what it was was a fucking millstone around my neck, producing endless cognitive dissonance.
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14-01-2017, 01:57 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 07:54 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(11-01-2017 12:38 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Cypher44,

You seem to be all over the place with your remarks. How about spelling out what your beliefs are regarding a god instead of so much speculating about what anybody in general might think or believe? Speculating is also fine, but it might make more sense if we had some context.

My personal God is simple :

He has the power to do things, he loves us, BUT he has severely limited knowledge:

To explain this.. I will use an analogy

Imagine.. God is a programmer
God is creating a program
God has ability and the knowledge to create the program
But God doesn't have the ability to create a perfect program
Therefore each program he makes is inherently imperfect
and contains errors, God doesn't know how to fix these errors
and even if he does eventually fix a "bug", a new problem crops up

-C

I was taught that god was everywhere (omnipresent) all-knowing (omniscient) and could do anything (omnipotent) (raised Catholic and attended a baptist school when I was a little kid).

One example given was that god knew that Pontius Pilate would wash his hands and god knew that Judas would betray Jesus for money. The idea being both could be forgiven by god, since it was god who was compelling them, and fulfillment of the idea that he had to die to save us. (admittedly I have never fully understood that but whatever).

I do recall as a kid, asking the baptist school teacher why did god have to destroy the earth with a flood. The answer given was because of wickedness. So I asked something like but if god can do anything why didn't he just take away the wickedness? They said that would be too easy and no one would learn...That god somehow wanted people to learn from their mistakes.

This again made little sense because everyone allegedly died in the flood (save for Noah, family and some animals). So what lesson were they learning?


But as if to knock me down, reality came around
And without so much as a mere touch, cut me into little pieces

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14-01-2017, 05:12 PM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 09:46 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 09:35 AM)Fatbaldhobbit Wrote:  What do you expect us to do?

YOU came here.
YOU expressed your beliefs.

I do not want to hold beliefs that are false.
You have expressed your beliefs and the reasons that you hold them.
I do not accept that your beliefs are true, nor are your reasons valid.
If you profess such beliefs and reasons here, people will point out the flaws.

What you do with your life is entirely your business.

I know that and that's why I came here.

I apologise for being a dickhead.. Back to it

Hug

Heart

Thumbsup

Cheers!
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15-01-2017, 06:15 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 01:27 PM)mordant Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 09:48 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  Letting go is extremely difficult.. At this point.. Just trying to rationalize it all
It might help to elucidate exactly why it is difficult. Is it entirely social pressure or what you imagine (rightly or not) to be horrible social consequences?

An example of what was a little difficult for me, for a short while, was that I could no longer indulge certain mental 'tics' that I had been acculturated to, such as firing off little "prayerlets" when I was concerned or anxious about someone's well-being (mine or others). That sort of prayer had made me feel like I was doing something about things I had no actual control over. Gradually I realized this didn't help, but was so habituated to it that I felt at loose ends because I had nothing to replace it with, at least not directly. What I learned to replace it with was acceptance of the actual situation, which is that it is up to all humans to take care of themselves. Which, when you actually come in sync with it, is actually a positive realization. We are not, after all, exactly helpless, and in those times when we are Shit Out Of Luck™, we are no more so without an imaginary deity than we are with one. And for me at least it was much better to realize that than to always be wondering what I did wrong or how I gave Satan freedom to act or how God might be testing me or teaching me in some way, yadda-yadda. My whole imaginary world, I was taught, was this indispensable thing when in fact what it was was a fucking millstone around my neck, producing endless cognitive dissonance.


What worries me, is the social consequences.

Oh no. He's here - God
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15-01-2017, 09:29 AM
RE: A Fallible God
(14-01-2017 01:57 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  ... So I asked something like but if god can do anything why didn't he just take away the wickedness? They said that would be too easy and no one would learn...That god somehow wanted people to learn from their mistakes.

This again made little sense because everyone allegedly died in the flood (save for Noah, family and some animals). So what lesson were they learning?
Yeah the two explanations for why god can't or won't exercise his omnipotence are either that we are here to learn stuff and he would prevent that by interfering, or we're supposed to have free will and he's too much the gentleman to take that from us. But both are lameness exemplified. As you point out, in the case of the flood, no one learned squat, as he killed them all. In the case of free will, people in heaven will be ... unable to sin, so no free will, and robotic, yet that somehow is not a problem.
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15-01-2017, 09:38 AM (This post was last modified: 15-01-2017 11:36 AM by mordant.)
RE: A Fallible God
(15-01-2017 06:15 AM)Cypher44 Wrote:  
(14-01-2017 01:27 PM)mordant Wrote:  It might help to elucidate exactly why it is difficult. Is it entirely social pressure or what you imagine (rightly or not) to be horrible social consequences?
What worries me, is the social consequences.
You'll get no judgment from me; plenty of us here are closeted and even though I am not closeted to my family, including extended family, I am closeted in my business life and, you might say, very low key in my personal life. Sometimes discretion is the better part of valor. Life has many battles and having ass-kicking contests with people, possibly even strangers, over your beliefs about deities, may not be a wise battle to pick.

I am just submitting for your consideration that when you started posting here you first sounded rather like a gnostic theist, then an agnostic theist, and now I think whether you admit it to yourself or not you have really made the mental transition to agnostic atheist. Perhaps you don't want to admit it to yourself because it would make playing the game with your theist family and friends harder than it is (or highlight for you that it's harder than you fully realize anyway).

Regardless, it's all good. It is just your particular journey. Back yourself in however you feel you need to.
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