A Good Christian
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22-03-2013, 05:19 AM (This post was last modified: 22-03-2013 05:22 AM by Misanthropik.)
RE: A Good Christian
(22-03-2013 05:02 AM)Shawc27 Wrote:  
(22-03-2013 04:52 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  Before I answer your overall question, I have to address this. What you mean to say is that you believe we will eventually. I haven't read anyone else's comments, but I can guess that what you mean here is that when we die; we will go to Heaven and be confronted with the Lord, and on that day we will believe. If that is what you meant, then you must be aware that that is merely your belief. It is not a fact. You may think it is, but it's not. What's more, while a general god is up for debate; what is abundantly clear is that YOUR god - the god of Christianity - patently, demonstrably, does not exist. I'm sorry to start this off with that, but it needed to be said.

Either way, that is your belief. And though it may be fact to you, that does not mean it is a fact of reality. So please, in the future, refrain from asserting it as such.

In any case, are there good christians? Yes. I know a few of them. One woman in particular is an extremely devout christian who found love and comfort in what she believes is God after she was brutally raped by an intruder in her home. (Funny how God always seems to pop up when people are not in their right minds) She is the type of christian who has that glassy (some would say "deluded") look in her eyes that devoted believers often express. With her bright eyes, she will often speak about the "good will" trips she and her fellow church friends will go on; setting up stands around town and giving food to those in need. I haven't spoken to her in some time, but when I did, she was always, always willing to drop everything she was doing at a moment's notice and let me confide in her about my problems or concerns. Often, she would top off our conversations with a prayer, which I politely accepted, because I could see in her eyes that she truly believed it would help me, and she wanted to call upon God to assist me. Yes, there are good christians out there. Just as there are good muslims and good satanists and, oh yes, even good atheists.

But "what's so wrong with religion"? What's wrong is the fact that it is an irrational, faith-based, demonstrably false and intellectually disruptive plague upon our society. It sets belief in unverified sky-beings above verifiable, observable, testable, REtestable and consistent evidence. Even a religion at its absolute best is holding back the proper intellectual function of its sufferer. It is a psychological detriment. A cancer of thought upon the brain of Man. (Someone make that a book title. And I expect full credit)

Please don't misunderstand me; religion is not the only culprit in this battle. Religion is merely the collective result of many different irrationalities. That is the true enemy. Irrationality. It is something which rears its ugly head in the form of anything from horoscopes to voo-doo; from homeopathic water to the Vatican. Irrationality is the ultimate offender with which many of us take issue, and we will address it in whichever form it wishes to manifest. The reason we attack religion much of the time is that, again, religion is a large collection of that irrationality. Thus, it is a much larger, much more influential target. It has the power to move nations and even determine a man's fate. It can bring down buildings and force non-believers from their devout familes and out of their towns.

And I say, once again, that despite its monumental influence; it is demonstrably, undeniably false. Thus, all of its atrocities - both big and small - are entirely in vain. That is why we take issue with it. Were you not blinded by its influence, you would too. Any good person would.

Hey man, thanks for the reply,

You said that all religion is undeniably false, is there really not even the most minute of chances that there may, just may, be a God and an afterlife? And if the answer is yes, have a look at the ontological argument, it's quite reasonable and may help broaden your views.

Also you said I was blinded by the influence of religion? I'm sorry to sound like a bit of a whinge, but I do kind of take offence to this. You assume that I have not considered Atheism, or any other religions, or simply someone who blindly follows without question. I just don't like these assumptions atheists seem to make about anyone who is religious, do you think that's fair?

Thanks
"You said that all religion is undeniably false, is there really not even the most minute of chances that there may, just may, be a God and an afterlife?"

As I stated; a general god is up for debate. This means that I am leaving open the possibility of there being a god; and perhaps even an afterlife of some sort. Ever-increasing evidence in the field of Psychology - the study of the mind - heavily suggests (and I use those particular words only for the sake of intellectual humility) that what we call "life" ends at the moment of death. All of the neural firings and chemical reactions within our physical brains are what create sensations that we call "thoughts" and they make up the entirety of our personality. In short: what makes us "who" we are. When that ceases, everything that "we" are is gone. It simply ceases to be. But, I am leaving open the possibility of an afterlife only because I am not arrogant enough to claim absolute certainty on anything at all in this world.

So sure, I admit that there could be a minute chance of those things existing. But bear in mind that just because I admit a chance; doesn't mean that chance really exists. And it certainly doesn't mean that the things which have that chance of existing exist either.

Either way, while a general god is up for debate, the religions of this world are demonstrably false. That is because they rest upon certain premises which, unfortunately for them, can be tested. As it happens, they HAVE been tested, and they have failed. That is a simple fact of life, but it has no bearing on a general god - which has yet to even be defined, but I'll just leave it as the vague concept that it is and let the philosophers (those who study in mere thought and imagination) handle it from there.

"You assume that I have not considered Atheism, or any other religions, or simply someone who blindly follows without question."

I made no such assumption. Not once. I merely said that you are blinded by the influence of religious belief. Or, what I have already refered to more specifically as "irrationality". This means only that you are under its effects, and are thus - to an extent - unable to understand why I view your irrationality as something negative.

To illustrate: if you saw your wife; your daughter; your mother; someone you love throwing salt over their shoulder because they believe it will bring them good luck (or whatever the hell throwing salt does), would you not feel some sense of pity for them? Surely you would think such a pointless action is absurd if done with the hopes of being assisted by some cosmic force like luck. Could you not feel bad for them because they adhere to this irrational logic? I would hope you would. But, if you were to approach them about it, they may not understand why you have a problem with it. To them, it's a great idea, because they truly believe it is benefiting them. If that's the case, why wouldn't they do it? It would only make sense. And why does it make sense to them? Because they're blinded (perhaps "biased" is a less threatening word?) by the influence of their irrationality. So, they're unable to see why you or I have a problem with it.

That is what I meant. I never suggested that you'd not considered Atheism; nor did I suggest that you've never considered other religions; nor did I suggest that you "blindly follow" anything. (Other than, perhaps, with my claim of "faith", but that's another argument for another time) If anyone is making assumptions here, I dare say it is you in regard to my intentions.

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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22-03-2013, 05:29 AM
RE: A Good Christian
(22-03-2013 05:02 AM)Shawc27 Wrote:  I just don't like these assumptions atheists seem to make about anyone who is religious, do you think that's fair?

Broad generalizations are a two edge sword, I agree. Most religious folks paint "us" non believers with the broadest possible brush (usually dipped in fire and brimstone).

A bit of unsolicited advice if you are interested in getting along in here.

1) Know of what you speaketh. (There are many of us who were brought up in religion and faith and can run circles around most with regards to dogma, doctrine, the bible and religious history.)

2) Don't proselytize, you will be burned at the stake (we learned that from the religious folk).

3) Thought provoking new points of view are welcome, trolling is met with unbounded disgust.

Good luck.

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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22-03-2013, 05:41 AM
RE: A Good Christian
1. Thanks mate,

It just seemed like you having a go, but I know that's only your beliefs Smile

2. Yeh cheers,

Hahaha, no intent to do any of the above, but I have read the bible a few times and have studied it, I like to think I have some idea of what I believe Smile
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22-03-2013, 06:45 AM
RE: A Good Christian
Good Christian? That's an oxymoron. Tongue

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22-03-2013, 07:12 AM
RE: A Good Christian
...and! I hadda go to a compy with a keyboard (fucking iPad Tongue ) in order to express a greater degree of neck. So here goes!

I'm a prophet, which means I remember standing before the creator of the universe and accepting the title of prophet; and you know what god tells his prophets? Nothing! I go, "god, what am I supposed to tell people," and he goes, "if I had to tell you, what would I need you for?" Comedian, that guy. But, no, words are a very inefficient form of communication. What the prophet gets is visions, and what is visualized is simultaneity.

Which is to say, the letter of the law is bupkis, it is the spirit of the law which matters. And you come on here with your "y'all gonna believe" horseshit cause you are parroting the letter... ain't gonna happen. After death, consciousness no longer maintains sequence - the manner of earthly functionality - and dissolves into simultaneity. A "return to god;" all consciousness. This Christian nonsense of "hell" merely means "without god," and such a state ain't even fucking possible. Atheists are not atheists in protest of god, but rather in protest of worldly institutions that pretend to speak for god - and as mentioned, god don't use words.

So you get hostility in response to your "smug sense of certainty." Some of us take such certainty to mean, " I am uncertain in my faith, so if more people believe as I do, I'll feel better about it;" and that's where faith is more like group delusion.

And Christianity is bad joss. It has been molded into a paradigm of herd mentality that restricts rational skepticism, and that's never a good thing. If god didn't want people asking questions, he'd just show up in a blaze of glory and we'd be all good monkeys going "hey god!" That's why you take that shit on faith, in order for the individual to formulate his/her own paradigm; and if that paradigm is lettered "ain't no god" but still represents "spirit," it's all roses and chocolate.

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22-03-2013, 07:17 AM
RE: A Good Christian
Until recently, there was an HoC-shaped whole in my soul.

Sigh!

Once more complete.

Yes

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22-03-2013, 07:28 AM
RE: A Good Christian
First, the Ontological Argument is useless:

Buddha is the greatest being imaginable. But a real Buddha is greater than an imaginary one. Therefore, Buddha exists.

Allah is the greatest being imaginable. But a real Allah is greater than an imaginary one. Therefore, Allah exists.

Hercules is the greatest warrior that we can imagine. But a warrior who exists is more powerful than a warrior who is only imaginary. Therefore, Hercules exists.

It is possible to imagine that the most magical creature is a unicorn. But a magical creature that exists is more magical than one that is only imaginary. Therefore, unicorns exist.

I imagine that a flying DeLorean is way more cool than one that doesn't fly. But a real flying DeLorean is more cool than an imaginary one. Therefore, flying DeLoreans exist.

The Raiders are the best football team I can imagine and in my mind they have never lost a game. But a real Raiders team that never lost a game is much more awesome than an imaginary one. Therefore, the Raiders have never lost a game.

All of these examples are exactly like the ontological argument. The assumption that we can imagine a perfect thing and then, by some convoluted logic, we believe that a real version of what we imagine is better than our imagination, therefore the real thing must exist, is just silly - it's just a word game.

Don't believe me? Well, here's the ontological argument that proves there is no god:

Creating the universe is the greatest achievement imaginable. Great achievements are measured by how great they are, and by how able the creator is. The greater the creator is, the easier it is for him to achieve, therefore, the more handicapped a creator is, the greater his achievement is when he achieves something (example: it's cool to watch LeBron James dunk a basketball, but consider how much more of an achievement it would be to see Stephen Hawking dunk a basketball). The greatest handicap to the universe's creator would be not existing. So, if we imagine that god created the universe while he existed, we can imagine an even greater achievement, that god created the universe while not existing. Therefore, god doesn't exist.
So, no, I don't see the ontological argument as proving anything. I actually reject the second premise - existence and non-existence are not properties of anything and therefore I do not believe that anything is "greater" by existing than it would be by not existing. At best, some things are more desirable when they exist than when they are merely imagined, but "desirable" is not proof of existence. Or, another way to look at it, the world is full of things that I wish were only imaginary, these things are definitely WORSE because they exist for real: slavery, AIDS, cancer, rape, murder, birth defects, drug addictions, poverty, and Republicans.

As for your actual question, I don't think there is anything wrong with a person being religious, as long as that is a private matter for them and they don't try to force it on me. Unfortunately, they always try to force it on me. In the U.S., Christians control who gets elected to public office, they are constantly trying to brainwash school kids by trying to force schools to teach their religion in schools, they force politicians to make bad decisions about marriage, homosexuality, drugs, guns, and many other things. Hell, even my little girls were not allowed to play with their neighbors (many different neighboring families) because those families were all Mormon and didn't want their children playing with children who didn't go to their church.

As soon as religion decides to leave me alone and quit screwing with my life and my kids' lives, and everyone else's life because I'm magnanimous like that, then I'll stop caring about what people believe.

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22-03-2013, 08:12 AM
RE: A Good Christian
The Ontological Argument is also useless as no one can explain how "god exists" makes any sense. Define "existence" In doing so, USE NO WORD OR CONCEPT THAT REQUIRES SPACETIME. If you cannot, you can say nothing about the subject. If the "existence" of a god REQUIRES time for her existence, (and not defined away by Special Pleading as WLCriag does), she is not the creator of Reality, (or Causality). I have never met a theist who can do it, and just sputters. well...well...well...but...but...but. It is lingusistically meaningless. I'm sure this one can't either.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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22-03-2013, 01:55 PM
RE: A Good Christian
Of coarse there are good christians! I am one, well, at least i hope so in the eyes of God. Why the hell am I on this website?? Because I love conversation, especially people who question the bible. I have no problem with atheists, or gays or such. I am not allowed to judge others (I do all the time) does that make me a bad christian in that regard? Anyway, I have found that most christian people are some of the ost generous, kindest people out there. bi have been given so uch from that community. I have a rich life full of wonderful friends-some who share the same beleif system-others who do not. Also, there are so many beleivers of God/Jesus who have their own personal beleif of what Christianity is. I really think that nobody fully understands who God is. I am glad to hear all of the respect in this debate, and these atheists on here are generally unbiased and ethical. I struggle with my beleif system, honetly. With having all the non sense type stories in the bible, how could you not. Does that make me a bad christian? I don't think so. I love having an open mind, and knowing the possibilty that the bible is all a mirage, and my God does not exist. Well, I do not love that thought, but it is definatly out there. Religious people that hurt others is the real problem here.

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22-03-2013, 02:01 PM
RE: A Good Christian
WTF puppy? You're a Christian? GTFO.

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