A Learning God
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01-09-2010, 01:13 PM
RE: A Learning God
(01-09-2010 12:33 PM)TruthAddict Wrote:  God or no God, Big Bang or no Big Bang, the universe has either existed for all eternity (supported by various physicists) or there was a moment at which point the non-existence turned into existence. It doesn't have much to do with the OP, but I think that the very concept of something springing from non-existence to existence for no apparent reason, or something that has existed forever (an incomprehensible timescale) is absolutely perplexing.

I think almost no explanation for the origin of the universe (if it had an origin at all) will be psychologically satisfying. The sheer scale of the universe defies human language and understanding. That is not to say that physics cannot explain away its mysteries (which is what I hope to do), but the explanations get weirder and weirder every day.

It's like contemplating the moment of death. The point at which "you" cease to exist, and existence slips back into non-existence (for all practical purposes, existence has ended for you). You can think about for hours and never quite grasp all the implications. The human brain just simply wasn't designed for it. It's as if we have one more step to go in our evolution. Almost all other animals as far as we know cannot contemplate the universe they live in at all, and cannot truly understand death. The have an instinct of self-preservation, and continue living only because of this instinct (and the desire to reproduce). As humans, I'm sure the more cultured ones may be able to fully grasp these two concepts, but I think most of us cannot.

Many good points, I doubt we will ever know the origin -if any- of the universe, and to be honest it would be utter chaos if a god did present himself with the answers. First you have the worshipers who say "ALL PRAISE THE ULTIMATE TRUTH OF GOD!", then the skeptics "no way! there is NO POSSIBLE WAY this is God!", those that defy god "God is not all good and pure, let us all be free and never obey this tyrant", the believers of other faiths -some probably launching futile suicide runs on god- since god is known from the bible not to interfere with mortals except to command genocide or kill his own followers for innocent mistakes or acts of feelings/actions of empathy.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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01-09-2010, 07:22 PM
RE: A Learning God
UtM

There is a fundamental flaw in your opening premise. I'm a bit tired so please bear with me as I try to explain this:

The idea of a supreme being or beings has been fairly universal in human history. On that, I think most people can agree. However, for all religions there is some type of basis for it. In the polytheists traditions the world over they tend to stem from the earliest starts of those civilizations. If you read anything on the topic of the lead up to modern religions, you'll learn that most religions and beliefs in a given area will have certain commonalities. So, for example, it's not a coincidence that many of the European mythical Gods are fairly similar despite the differences in cultures. The Romans, and the Greeks and even as far as the early Scandinavians have similar traditions as they all stem from a common beginning. The point here is that there is some perceived original authority for all the beliefs, although for the earlier religions it became more of an oral tradition where the clergy passed on the traditions (and often used their closeness with the Gods as a position of power).

Then you get into the monotheistic religions of Judaism, Christianity and Islam, which claim to derive from the actual word of God. You have the Torah, the Bible and the Q'uron. These texts create a basis and an authority for these religions and beliefs. Without that, even with their contradictions and what not, they are simply fables. It is the belief that they came from God himself that gives them any authority. Even with a modern religion like Mormonism you have a founder who claimed to have heard the word from God himself. The Book of Mormon, regardless of what we may think of it, is the authoritative book and origin of the Mormon religion, and it is, in their belief, the word of God.

If you don't have that, if you don't have some divine providence to justify the faith in your belief, and you can't come up with some actual proof of your beliefs, then you just have stories. So, here is the flaw in your original question: there is no authoritative basis for it. I don't believe Jesus rose form the dead and ascended to heaven but there is at least a text, claimed to be from the mouth of God himself, that says he did. When you start to deviate from those beliefs, when you try to change the dynamics of the religion to fit what we know about the world through science and observation, you enter into the realm of what I refer to as "just making shit up".

Your question, and no offense meant here, falls into the realm of just making shit up. There is no basis for a faith based belief in it and there is no logical basis for it. It's akin to if you can't find your car keys in the morning blaming it on elves that come in at night and go joy riding in your car. It's just something you made up.

Anyway, hope that made sense and hope you took it in the spirit in which it was intended.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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01-09-2010, 07:29 PM (This post was last modified: 01-09-2010 07:42 PM by UnderTheMicroscope.)
RE: A Learning God
(01-09-2010 07:22 PM)BnW Wrote:  Anyway, hope that made sense and hope you took it in the spirit in which it was intended.

I understand exactly what you're getting at, but as I said before in a few separate comments, this is purely a thought, and I'm not sure how many times I have to say this but I have no faith in this, its just an interesting idea that makes more sense to me than other religions and I thought I'd share with the community.
I appreciate your feedback and its comments like that which confirm to me just how well read individuals on this site are, I think you could easily trump me in a debate, and going based off that I won't dare start an argument xD

EDIT: only just noticed 2buckchucks post.
yea the whole deity in infancy thing is correct, but the way I see it is there would be no way knowing everything if there was nothing to begin with except a few base elements which this "god" may or may not have created. Obviously I have no evidence of this, if I did i may be making more money than I am now.

So for sake of argument lets say this isn't any kind of god in the literal sense, but it is indirectly responsible for earth and by extension the human race, the focus of this is not "why call him god?" but "what are his motives?" the god of the bible is tyrannical, infanticidal, genocidal, abusive, sadomasochistic, jealous and proud of it, and rarely forgiving.
These are traits are comparable to the attitudes of schoolyard bullies in that if anyone defies their way of thinking they will punish them, why? because they know they are stronger or more intimidating.
And yes I realize this is another case of god being modeled after humans, but this is based off logical thought about personality traits consistent throughout the bible as well as assumed causative factors that work into my idea.

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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01-09-2010, 07:47 PM
RE: A Learning God
If god started everthing in motion and then did nothing else, the religion is still man made fiction.

If something is labeled as a religion but teaches the laws of nature as they truly are, then it is a form of science and not a true religion.
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01-09-2010, 07:51 PM
RE: A Learning God
Quote:So for sake of argument lets say this isn't any kind of god in the literal sense, but it is indirectly responsible for earth and by extension the human race, the focus of this is not "why call him god?" but "what are his motives?"

Let me turn this idea a little bit. If we define "God" as the creator and nothing else then I guess there is a "God". He (or she - don't want to be un-PC)) are the laws of physics, both those that we have seemingly defined and those yet to be understood. God, in that sense, is a force of nature without motivation. This is the God that I believe Thomas Jefferson referred to when he spoke of "nature's God" in the Declaration of Independence or what Einstein referred to when he said "God does not roll dice". In that sense, then everything around us - the sun, the moon, the gravitation pull that causes the tides, the weather, is all God. The problem becomes when we add sentience and intent to all this.

Also, a little off topic but I noted this:

Quote:I appreciate your feedback and its comments like that which confirm to me just how well read individuals on this site are, I think you could easily trump me in a debate, and going based off that I won't dare start an argument xD

I'm a good debater because I want to debate school. I was trained to argue professionally. You give me a topic and a little bit of time and I can put forth some pretty damn good arguments, all of which will sound good but many of which will be logical jibberish. Never be afraid to have an argument because you are concerned the other side is more articulate than you. I know you're making a joke, but I see that a lot in life and in business. People who scream the loudest get heard the most, but that does not make them right. Very often, they aren't.

Just an observation.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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01-09-2010, 08:01 PM
RE: A Learning God
Quote:I'm a good debater because I want to debate school. I was trained to argue professionally.

I've always wanted some sort of debating club at my school, unfortunately my community kinda frowns upon questions and challenges.

Quote:Just an observation.

tis a grand observation indeed xD

I myself am trying to follow the warriors philosophy and thus am attempting to expand my horizons in all areas possible, debating and articulation being one of them.

As for your little turn its a perfectly reasonable assessment given modern day science. Funnily enough I actually had a girl tell me she thought the weather -rain, rainbows, clouds, and the sun- were directly caused by divine intervention... she is 15, claims to be an incredibly smart and cunning individual, one who reads the bible almost daily and finds no horrors or crimes committed.. no joke...

Hey brother christian, with your high and mighty errand, your actions speak so loud, I can't hear a word you're saying.

"This machine kills fascists..."

"Well this machine kills commies!"
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01-09-2010, 08:13 PM
RE: A Learning God
I myself never attended debate school, but if you want to find some good resources on logic and how to construct a logical argument, I encourage you to check out these sites:

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/m...logic.html
http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/index.htm
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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02-09-2010, 07:24 AM
RE: A Learning God
uhhh ... I was being a little tongue-in-cheek on the "debate school" comment. I actually went to, amongst other educational institutions, law school, which teaches you how to make rational arguments on the most irrational topics.

Shackle their minds when they're bent on the cross
When ignorance reigns, life is lost
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02-09-2010, 09:55 AM
RE: A Learning God
Well, I don't know. I don't know where you live, or what they call stuff like that there. For all I know, you really could have gone to debate school. Tongue

"Owl," said Rabbit shortly, "you and I have brains. The others have fluff. If there is any thinking to be done in this Forest - and when I say thinking I mean thinking - you and I must do it."
- A. A. Milne, The House at Pooh Corner
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02-09-2010, 02:41 PM
RE: A Learning God
(01-09-2010 12:33 PM)TruthAddict Wrote:  It's like contemplating the moment of death. The point at which "you" cease to exist, and existence slips back into non-existence (for all practical purposes, existence has ended for you). You can think about for hours and never quite grasp all the implications. The human brain just simply wasn't designed for it.

I may have an answer for this. This is a theory that my Neuroscience prof gave my class, so it may be a little biased Tongue
The "you" that you mentioned, is your brain. Our brains create our reality, our thoughts, and our personalities. "We" are our brains. Thus, when our neurons stop firing, we die. Because our brains are no longer working, we cease to experience. This could be said to be the point that "we" stop existing. All that is left is a dead body. (This is also my argument against souls/spirits and an afterlife.)

"Remember, my friend, that knowledge is stronger than memory, and we should not trust the weaker." - Dr. Van Helsing, Dracula
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