A Message to Creationists
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09-03-2012, 10:16 AM
RE: A Message to Creationists
(09-03-2012 10:14 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(28-02-2012 10:02 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I don't believe there are any Creationists (YEC, OEC, PC) on this forum.

Yeah, that's why there are few threads in Creationism... there's so little to argue about.

Hmmm, I guess I could always pretend.

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17-03-2012, 05:37 AM
RE: A Message to Creationists
A Message to Jordan

I know you don't want to die. I can understand. It's frightening. The loss of others is terrible. I have been through that. You also don't want to seem alone and insignificant in a vast cosmos. You also can't stand to see injustice and wickedness in the world. The thought that so many die without punishment and so many others suffer without respite is almost too much to bear. I know how you feel. But there is one powerful tool we have to deal with the world. A tool that allows us to fight back against suffering and injustice. A tool that gives our species dignity and hope. That tool is truth. It's honest truth. It's harsh truth, truth that we find by being honest with ourselves, not from wishing what might be.

The truth is that there is no evolution. There never was. Our wonderful minds have imagination and such a capacity for belief. We see shapes in the shadows. We hear music in the wind. We hear voices in the sea. We see stories in the stars. But there is no music. There are no voices. There are no stories. There is no evolution. Cleaning reality of the crayon-drawings of our imagination we see what is truly there, and the sea and the wind and the stars are vastly more beautiful freed from the petty constrains of random chance.

We are better people freed from evolution. We can create our own lives, decide for ourselves where we want to go next. We are no longer slave-puppets of a deterministic naturalism.

I know my true history. I'm not an ape. And not a monkey. And not a shrew, not a lizard, not a fish, not a worm, not a cell, not a replicating strand of RNA. I have a true origin, I am built by a God older than seas, older than skies, older than rocks. I am a personal story descended through a few hundred generations, a story that is the same with the retelling. I just add my bit to it.

I celebrate what we know about true origins, and I also celebrate what we don't know. We don't know how this universe started. The physical story has a missing few pages. So we look for them. We don't scribble some fairy story about evolution and try and glue that in instead.

It's not wrong to fear death. It's not true that we are an orphan species, wandering confused on a small rock hanging in space. It's sad that some have to hide within delusion. It's wrong to insist that others should remain deluded by evolution too to help hide your fear of there actually being a God.
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17-03-2012, 09:04 AM
RE: A Message to Creationists
(17-03-2012 05:37 AM)SixForty Wrote:  A Message to Jordan

I know you don't want to die. I can understand. It's frightening. The loss of others is terrible. I have been through that. You also don't want to seem alone and insignificant in a vast cosmos. You also can't stand to see injustice and wickedness in the world. The thought that so many die without punishment and so many others suffer without respite is almost too much to bear. I know how you feel. But there is one powerful tool we have to deal with the world. A tool that allows us to fight back against suffering and injustice. A tool that gives our species dignity and hope. That tool is truth. It's honest truth. It's harsh truth, truth that we find by being honest with ourselves, not from wishing what might be.

The truth is that there is no evolution. There never was. Our wonderful minds have imagination and such a capacity for belief. We see shapes in the shadows. We hear music in the wind. We hear voices in the sea. We see stories in the stars. But there is no music. There are no voices. There are no stories. There is no evolution. Cleaning reality of the crayon-drawings of our imagination we see what is truly there, and the sea and the wind and the stars are vastly more beautiful freed from the petty constrains of random chance.

We are better people freed from evolution. We can create our own lives, decide for ourselves where we want to go next. We are no longer slave-puppets of a deterministic naturalism.

I know my true history. I'm not an ape. And not a monkey. And not a shrew, not a lizard, not a fish, not a worm, not a cell, not a replicating strand of RNA. I have a true origin, I am built by a God older than seas, older than skies, older than rocks. I am a personal story descended through a few hundred generations, a story that is the same with the retelling. I just add my bit to it.

I celebrate what we know about true origins, and I also celebrate what we don't know. We don't know how this universe started. The physical story has a missing few pages. So we look for them. We don't scribble some fairy story about evolution and try and glue that in instead.

It's not wrong to fear death. It's not true that we are an orphan species, wandering confused on a small rock hanging in space. It's sad that some have to hide within delusion. It's wrong to insist that others should remain deluded by evolution too to help hide your fear of there actually being a God.

Yay! We have an actual creationist here! It makes me so happy!

You know your true history because someone told you, and someone else told that someone, and someone else told that someone... you believe that a witness long removed from you actually knows where the universe came from (despite the fact that no one could witness the creation of the universe before the creation of man). Sure, there are fossils of the evolution of man, but they're either a hoax or species destroyed by "the flood"... because they had to be to fit your worldview. Evolution explains why there are millions of species of ants and why related recent species such as marsupials are all located on their own islands, certainly better than a story of them all coming from a single mountain where they crash-landed... but it doesn't fit your worldview, so it must be mistaken.

There are plenty of Mormons who deny the scientific evidence against their claims of the Jewish heritage of Indians, because who needs science when it contradicts your beliefs? The evidence is useless if it doesn't back your claims, and can be denied or discarded or buried under alternate theories that don't have evidential support.

Many of us atheists don't fear death, because we don't believe there's anything after death. I wasn't in "pain" before I was born, and I expect that I'm headed to the same non-existence. However, if someone fear-mongered me with belief in an afterlife filled with Hell, I might be scared into a life of trying to avoid that. And if someone made it sound like coming from a shared ancestor with chimps was insulting, I might actually be insulted by that. But I'm not afraid of death nor of the thought of coming from "lesser" life forms. The emotional appeal here is as weak as the scientific one. You're not dealing with weak-minded people here.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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17-03-2012, 09:39 AM
RE: A Message to Creationists
(17-03-2012 09:04 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  Yay! We have an actual creationist here! It makes me so happy!

You know your true history because someone told you, and someone else told that someone, and someone else told that someone... you believe that a witness long removed from you actually knows where the universe came from (despite the fact that no one could witness the creation of the universe before the creation of man). Sure, there are fossils of the evolution of man, but they're either a hoax or species destroyed by "the flood"... because they had to be to fit your worldview. Evolution explains why there are millions of species of ants and why related recent species such as marsupials are all located on their own islands, certainly better than a story of them all coming from a single mountain where they crash-landed... but it doesn't fit your worldview, so it must be mistaken.

There are plenty of Mormons who deny the scientific evidence against their claims of the Jewish heritage of Indians, because who needs science when it contradicts your beliefs? The evidence is useless if it doesn't back your claims, and can be denied or discarded or buried under alternate theories that don't have evidential support.

Many of us atheists don't fear death, because we don't believe there's anything after death. I wasn't in "pain" before I was born, and I expect that I'm headed to the same non-existence. However, if someone fear-mongered me with belief in an afterlife filled with Hell, I might be scared into a life of trying to avoid that. And if someone made it sound like coming from a shared ancestor with chimps was insulting, I might actually be insulted by that. But I'm not afraid of death nor of the thought of coming from "lesser" life forms. The emotional appeal here is as weak as the scientific one. You're not dealing with weak-minded people here.

rofl

Bruh... chill.

Let him get acclimated first. He's a precious commodity here... don't want to scare him off.

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17-03-2012, 09:46 AM
RE: A Message to Creationists
(17-03-2012 05:37 AM)SixForty Wrote:  Our wonderful minds have imagination and such a capacity for belief. We see shapes in the shadows. We hear music in the wind. We hear voices in the sea. We see stories in the stars. But there is no music. There are no voices. There are no stories.
You understand this, that we cannot trust ourselves, yet you trust a book? Also, that was beautiful and poetic. And I have to disagree. In the pattern of the sand on the beach there are stories, in the light from the stars there are stories *for the one who knows how to read*.

Quote:We are better people freed from evolution. We can create our own lives, decide for ourselves where we want to go next. We are no longer slave-puppets of a deterministic naturalism.
We are better people freed from religion. We are no longer slave puppets of a mad dream.

Quote:I know my true history. I'm not an ape. And not a monkey. And not a shrew, not a lizard, not a fish, not a worm, not a cell, not a replicating strand of RNA. I have a true origin, I am built by a God older than seas, older than skies, older than rocks. I am a personal story descended through a few hundred generations, a story that is the same with the retelling. I just add my bit to it.
*How* do you know this?

Given that you appreciate that we as humans are easily deluded, what makes you think that your magic book speaks truth?
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17-03-2012, 02:44 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2012 02:52 PM by SixForty.)
RE: A Message to Creationists
(17-03-2012 09:04 AM)Starcrash Wrote:  The emotional appeal here is as weak as the scientific one. You're not dealing with weak-minded people here.

I won't bother dealing with all the Strawman fallacies you've brought up, assuming what I believe when you don't actually know. However, this comment of yours bears some thought. Simply because it too is arbitrarily reversible, just as I did with the original poster's thoughts. Because that original post was simply an emotional appeal. Accepting atheism on the sole basis of emotional appeal would be just as weak as accepting theism on the sole basis of emotional appeal. Blind faith in either belief is just as bad.

You're not dealing with a weak minded person here. Smile
(17-03-2012 09:39 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Let him get acclimated first. He's a precious commodity here... don't want to scare him off.

Don't worry, you won't scare me off. I'm not likely to be here long anyway on my own accord. I just came to this site from the owner's YouTube videos. I wanted to see if he was serious, or if they were ultra-subtle satirical swipes against the absurdity of how atheism typically attacks creation. I couldn't really tell which side he was on. But now I think I can, which is kind of sad. I think I'm going to recommend less time spent on production values (which are impressively good, by the way) and more time spent on researching content (which is pathetically weak most times, to the point of being embarrassing)


(17-03-2012 09:46 AM)morondog Wrote:  You understand this, that we cannot trust ourselves, yet you trust a book? Also, that was beautiful and poetic. And I have to disagree. In the pattern of the sand on the beach there are stories, in the light from the stars there are stories *for the one who knows how to read*.

Just to clarify - I didn't actually write that piece. It was written in it's original form by the original poster. I simply made some very slight changes to show that it can work as an idea from both sides of the issue. It's foundation is effectively arbitrary, and therefore completely reversible.
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17-03-2012, 03:08 PM (This post was last modified: 17-03-2012 03:10 PM by morondog.)
RE: A Message to Creationists
(17-03-2012 02:44 PM)SixForty Wrote:  Just to clarify - I didn't actually write that piece. It was written in it's original form by the original poster. I simply made some very slight changes to show that it can work as an idea from both sides of the issue. It's foundation is effectively arbitrary, and therefore completely reversible.

tx for the heads up about the OP. His was a wall so I skimmed it. Yours was a more interesting wall so I stared at it.
Also are you a literal Young Earth Creationist Huh
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17-03-2012, 03:33 PM
RE: A Message to Creationists
(17-03-2012 03:08 PM)morondog Wrote:  Also are you a literal Young Earth Creationist Huh

It's not usually a term I use to describe myself, but I guess it fits, so yes.
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17-03-2012, 03:38 PM
RE: A Message to Creationists
(17-03-2012 03:33 PM)SixForty Wrote:  
(17-03-2012 03:08 PM)morondog Wrote:  Also are you a literal Young Earth Creationist Huh

It's not usually a term I use to describe myself, but I guess it fits, so yes.

but WHY? I assume you've put some thought into this?
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17-03-2012, 04:07 PM
RE: A Message to Creationists
(17-03-2012 03:38 PM)morondog Wrote:  but WHY? I assume you've put some thought into this?

Short answer: everything I study points me to this. Whether it be philosophy, various branches of science (i.e., geology, biology, astronomy, information theory), history, society, etc. In the end, for me, the overwhelming amount of evidence I see points to theism and a young earth. Not all of it, but way more than enough.
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