A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
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27-05-2013, 04:15 PM (This post was last modified: 27-05-2013 06:31 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
(27-05-2013 04:02 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Whatever the pope says has to be, confirmed by the Vatican.

Wow, a Vatican spokesman that knows nothing of Roman Theology. A priest to boot. The requirements for mortal sin are 3.
Catechism of the Catholic Church :
#1857 For a sin to be mortal, three conditions must together be met: “Mortal sin is sin whose object is grave matter and which is also committed with full knowledge and deliberate consent.”
#1858 Grave matter is specified by the Ten Commandments, corresponding to the answer of Jesus to the rich young man: “Do not kill, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and your mother.” (Not a thing about belief.)
# 1859 Mortal sin requires full knowledge and complete consent. It presupposes knowledge of the sinful character of the act, of its opposition to God’s law. It also implies a consent sufficiently deliberate to be a personal choice. Feigned ignorance and hardness of heart do not diminish, but rather increase, the voluntary character of a sin. (1734)

Honest non-belief has never been historically, considered a grave matter. Obviously it's not "full knowledge" or "deliberate consent", if one honestly doubts, and in Moral Theology it's always been assumed that "full consent" is a matter between the person and their god alone, and no one else can judge.

Would be nice if they actually taught their priests and spokespeople a little about their cult.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-05-2013, 05:07 PM
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
(27-05-2013 02:54 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  In the United States the Church has paid over 2.6 Billion dollars to those affected by child abuse, which has bankrupted several parishes.

Pope John Paul II did this. I still disagree with the apology, but the Church has done it.

You are a sick and disturbed individual.

(27-05-2013 02:54 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  So what if they supported Hitler, everyone did.

Dude, you're on a roll here...disagreeing with Church apology for child abuse and now shrugging your shoulders at the Church's indifference to genocide. Shocking

(27-05-2013 02:54 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  If he should apologize for the crusades, then what should the church have done. Should the Church have done nothing and just left Alexios Comenus to the Turks. The Crusade originated because the Byzantine empire was getting destroyed.

Is that why the Fourth Crusade instead of attacking Islam attacked another Christian power - the (Eastern) Roman Empire?

(27-05-2013 02:54 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  And what about all the work the Church did to promote science. Other then Galileo, who was an idiot, the church has often supported scientists as well as artists and musicians by being one of the largest patrons in the medieval world as well as being the main preserver of knowledge. It is because of the church that the dark ages didn't last longer.

Click on this hyperlink to read a synopsis of all the "good" the Church has done over ten centuries. http://www.jesusneverexisted.com/1000years.htm

A few examples of the Church supporting scientists:

1327 Cecco d'Ascoli, whose knowledge was based on experiment and observation knew of metallic aerolites and shooting stars; the mystery of the dew was plain to him; fossil plants were accounted for by him through terrain revolutions which had resulted in the formation of mountains; he is even said to have divined the circulation of the blood. He was burned at Florence in his seventieth year. He was the first university scholar to be burned by the Inquisition.

1553 Michael Servetus was a Spanish theologian, physician, cartographer, and Renaissance humanist. He was the first European to correctly describe the function of pulmonary circulation. He was a polymath versed in many sciences: mathematics, astronomy and meteorology, geography, human anatomy, medicine and pharmacology, as well as jurisprudence, translation, poetry and the scholarly study of the Bible in its original languages. He is renowned in the history of several of these fields, particularly medicine and theology. He participated in the Protestant Reformation, and later developed a nontrinitarian Christology. Condemned by Catholics and Protestants alike, he was arrested in Geneva and burnt at the stake as a heretic by order of the Protestant Geneva governing council.

1600 After a seven year trail before the Inquisition, Giordano Bruno, who had the audacity to suggest that space was boundless and that the sun and its planets were not unique, is condemned and burned at the stake.

1633 Galileo is brought before the Inquisition. Under threat of torture and death, he is forced from his knees to renounce all belief in Copernican theories. He is sentenced to life imprisonment. He dies in 1642 and the charges against him stand for another 350 years.

And you defend this? Censored

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
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27-05-2013, 06:02 PM
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
Giordano Bruno (Italian pronunciation: [dʒorˈdano ˈbruno]; 1548 – February 17, 1600) (Latin: Iordanus Brunus Nolanus), born Filippo Bruno, was an Italian Dominican friar, philosopher, mathematician and astronomer. His cosmological theories went beyond the Copernican model in proposing that the Sun was essentially a star, and moreover, that the universe contained an infinite number of inhabited worlds populated by other intelligent beings. After the Roman Inquisition found him guilty of heresy, he was burned at the stake.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giordano_Bruno

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27-05-2013, 06:17 PM
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
There is also the entire fallacy that the church was responsible for "pulling Europe through the dark ages". That old trope. In fact it's much more complex, and in part resulted from the church destroying the learning and literature of the Hellenistic and Classical period, and THEN hanging on to what it chose to save. It's an active subject for debate, and far less simplistic than the belieber above presented it as, and also not at all a given that what happened would not have happened in some other way, had the monks not done the copying the the way they did. The copying errors prove the monks were for the most part illiterate. Only the top authorities of the church were actually literate.

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27-05-2013, 07:08 PM
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
@Full Circle
Sorry those first two were meant to be replying to two separate points, one regarding the Child abuse scandal and one referring to Pope John Paul II's apology to Muslims.

Quote:You are a sick and disturbed individual.
Yes, Yes I am.

Quote:Dude, you're on a roll here...disagreeing with Church apology for child abuse and now shrugging your shoulders at the Church's indifference to genocide.

I already gave my reasons why I believe the Church had no significant culpability for the impending genocide. They pulled their support from Hitler in 1938 the Genocide did not begin until 1943.

Quote:Is that why the Fourth Crusade instead of attacking Islam attacked another Christian power - the (Eastern) Roman Empire?

The Fourth Crusade was the exact crusade I thought of when I said that some of them went rogue. The church issued an order to the army to stop attacking Christians, they ignored it, so the pope excommunicated them. That was literally all he could have done. Was it a bad idea for someone to raise an army that they couldn't control. Maybe.

Although yes I portrayed it like the only time the church condemned scientists was Galileo, which I apologize for, there were probably scientists who were burned for their science, however, I would like to point out that of the scientists you named only Galileo, and possibly Bruno, were tried because of their science. Most of the others were tried for heresy pure and simple. you even give Servetus' reason which was the preaching of non trinitarianism. Also when I call Galileo an idiot it is because he said he would write an even argument detailing the different views on Planetary movement. He then proceeded to put the argument of the geocentrics into the mouth of a buffoon called Simplicio. Which is not a great way to keep friends especially when they have power over you. Also I would like to point out that Galileo's points where incorrect, the tides are not caused by the sun but the moon, as Kepler discovered not 30 years before.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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27-05-2013, 07:45 PM
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
@ Bucky Ball
Quote:"Several parishes" ?? Try many dioceses. Nice try at minimizing the horrific scandal. All such garbage.
I said Bankrupted several parishes. I in no way implied that the abuse was limited to a few diocese, however I thank you Diocese is the more appropriate word in this case.

Quote:The church says ANY expression of sexuality outside marriage is a sin. The "unnatural" thing did not have to do with "children" but the act. Nice try at revisionism. Any act that cannot potentially result in a child is immoral. Your church cooked up the bullshit of "natural family planning" even while maintaining (in Moral Theology), that the INTENTION was what makes an act immoral. Complete nonsense, and inconsistency.
Sorry that was meant to be a rebuttal to Mark saying that the "The church considers any expression of sexuality to be a sin", I was just putting that into the negative. I should have added that an act must be procreative and unitive, within the confines of marriage. I was so used to arguing this with fellow Catholics that the marriage bit was implied.
I would like to point out that the concept of Natural Family Planing is meant to be used as a delay method in order to plan your children not as a method of avoiding children altogether. Also the couple must be open to life.

Quote:Too bad you don't know your own cult.
we've been around for 2 thousand years do you know how much theology you can write in that amount of time. I just did my first year christian doctrine course, So I do know a fair amount of the Catechism.
Quote:The Bible says nothing about the pope or the bishop of Rome being "god's representative". It was made up, and the use of the word "ecclesia" is a Greek word, which proves Jebus never said it. There was no such thing as a "church" when Jebus was alive, so saying "upon this rock I will build my *church*" makes no sense, as there was no such thing as a "church" at the time. The entire history of the "wresting of supreme power" from the "co-equal patriarchs" by the bishop of Rome is one of the saddest episodes in religious history, which you people conveniently, (even while laughably saying you are the church of "tradition"), never address.
And yet that was the word the gospel writer used so this would fall under the realm of what the church calls Tradition. Which is basically how the apostles interpreted scripture. This is considered on par with scripture. So the Church would say that it is Catholic Tradition that all the Bishops looked to Rome as their Head.

Quote: The entire business of "natural law" has been debunked by science, even though you deny it. All species on the planet engage in same-sex behaviors.
I don't think one can debunk Natural Law as it is, according to St Thomas Aquinas, a rational being participating in the Divine Law. Really what happens in nature has only a little bit to due with Natural Law.

Quote:hey don't promote "their own concept of marriage", They ask for equality. Nothing else. Typical religious bs.
well then were promoting "our" own concept of marriage. In Catholicism a marriage is when a man and a women enter into a union with God reflecting the Trinity. So obviously their can't be Gay marriage as you have two men and no woman, (or Vise versa). Also I'm not big on equality or I should say equity. I believe that Humans are equal in human dignity. I believe that if you have differences then you don't have equality. I can't have a baby, I'm Okay with that because I realize that I`m different from a women. (this reminds me of life of Brian).

Quote:Who cares what G.K. Chesterton thought ? The fact is Mary took over the role in chivalry from the Arthurian Legends, and was not the origin for it. Joseph Campbell showed the "mother goddess" was ubiquitous in all religions, and was nothing unique to the Roman church, and neither was your mother goddess, Mary. What has that got to do with anything ? Are you trying to justify all the bullshit of your church with one historical error ?

I should of remembered what Saint Thomas said "arguments from authority are the weakest forms of argument, so says Boethius":D
What I was trying to do was point out that not everyone agrees with the point that the church has been responsible for oppressing women. Like Me.Big Grin

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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27-05-2013, 07:58 PM
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
@fstratzero

Quote:Canadian theists are often as bad as our States counterparts.

Hey I'm not bad because I'm a theist, I'm bad because I'm a philosopher.Tongue

Quote:You don't get it. What the Catholic church does in one place doesn't mean the entire church gets off scott free.

Unfortunately the abuse in the sates is one of the few particularly well documented inquires into the sex abuse scandal. So that is all I can really base my arguments off of.

Quote:Paying money to avoid justice is bribery by definition. If they continue to hide these criminals they will have to dole out money until every pedophile stops molesting, or dies. The churches argument against gay marriage is hypocritical as alter boys are the churches favorite target.

I was replying to Mark regarding his argument that the church give money to those affected. And was trying to argue that the church has given 2.6 billion to the victims in the US alone.

Quote:The Crusades shouldn't be justified by one Kings cry for help

Why not?

Quote:The Catholic version of natural law is:

The Catholic Church understands human beings to consist of body and mind, the physical and the non-physical (or soul perhaps), and that the two are inextricably linked. Humans are capable of discerning the difference between good and evil because they have a conscience. There are many manifestations of the good that we can pursue. Some, like procreation, are common to other animals, while others, like the pursuit of truth, are inclinations peculiar to the capacities of human beings.

Which is completely different from Natural Law as atheists understand it.

Thomas Hobbes version

As used by Thomas Hobbes in his treatises Leviathan and De Cive, natural law is "a precept, or general rule, found out by reason, by which a man is forbidden to do that which is destructive of his life, or takes away the means of preserving the same; and to omit that by which he thinks it may best be preserved."

Natural Law as we understand it in the modern sense:

A physical law or scientific law, according to the Oxford English dictionary, "is a theoretical principle deduced from particular facts, applicable to a defined group or class of phenomena, and expressible by the statement that a particular phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions be present."

What I was trying to point out here is that the church isn't the only group to have the concept that things have Natures. I tried to differentiate them simply by stating that the Catholic church believes that a things Nature comes from without meanwhile most atheistic or deistic philosophies would say that it comes from within the thing. I understand that different philosophers are going to have there own definitions however this is a very basic separation, sorry for the confusion.

I'm homophobic in the same way that I'm arachnophobic. I'm not scared of gay people but I'm going to scream if I find one in my bath.

I'm. Also homophobic in the same way I'm arachnophobic. I'm scared of spiders but I'd still fuck'em.
- my friend Marc
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27-05-2013, 08:42 PM (This post was last modified: 27-05-2013 09:08 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
(27-05-2013 07:45 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  I would like to point out that the concept of Natural Family Planing is meant to be used as a delay method in order to plan your children not as a method of avoiding children altogether. Also the couple must be open to life.

It's meant to limit AND plan. ANY limiting and any planning is defacto "limiting". The purpose is to PREVENT a SPECIFIC pregnancy. So "any baby is an equivalent baby" ? A delayed baby gets the soul of the intended for the other baby ? Right. The INTENT is to thwart the natural birth that would occur if the "plan" had not been put in place. The INTENT in temperature taking and keeping charts is to PREVENT a pregnancy. Not to "stall a pregnancy". Get real. The morality is equivalent to birth control. It's lying to yourself. And you know it. AT what point is the REAL moral question in 2013, when 200,000 net humans are added every day, to STOP the breeding ? When will they address the REAL moral question for 2013 ?

(27-05-2013 07:45 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  And yet that was the word the gospel writer used so this would fall under the realm of what the church calls Tradition. Which is basically how the apostles interpreted scripture. This is considered on par with scripture. So the Church would say that it is Catholic Tradition that all the Bishops looked to Rome as their Head.

They did not. Until AFTER the centralization of power. Do you even know when power was centralized ? And why ? And when Rome demanded obedience ? And when they "started" that "tradition" BS ? Read the proceedings of the Councils. They all did their own thing. They barely communicated. How convenient to say "tradition" is whatever is convenient and ignore what WAS tradition, when it's inconvenient. You people pick and choose your traditions like a 5 year old changes clothes. Your "traditions" change all the time. Saul of Tarsus recognized no "primacy of Peter", or the authority or even mentioned the Bishop of Rome. It was all cooked up later to justify what historical accident created.

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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27-05-2013, 08:48 PM
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
(27-05-2013 11:28 AM)kim Wrote:  
(27-05-2013 11:09 AM)KVron Wrote:  I wasn't aware of such message from the Vatican.

Thank you, Vatican.
Finally, I'll sleep tonight without being worried if I'd go to heaven or hell for being an atheist.

Uh.... no one said anything about atheists not going to hell. You'll just be tolerated while you're alive, since the church really doesn't seem to have any jurisdiction or sway over your life the way it does it's prisoners slaves flock.

No no, little atheist, you remain destined for hell. Nighty night. Angel

Damn. I misinterpreted the message. My fault. I'll pay more attention next time.

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27-05-2013, 08:55 PM
RE: A Message to the Vatican...FUCK YOU!
(27-05-2013 07:58 PM)TarzanSmith Wrote:  @fstratzero

Quote:Canadian theists are often as bad as our States counterparts.

Hey I'm not bad because I'm a theist, I'm bad because I'm a philosopher.Tongue

Quote:You don't get it. What the Catholic church does in one place doesn't mean the entire church gets off scott free.

Unfortunately the abuse in the sates is one of the few particularly well documented inquires into the sex abuse scandal. So that is all I can really base my arguments off of.

Quote:Paying money to avoid justice is bribery by definition. If they continue to hide these criminals they will have to dole out money until every pedophile stops molesting, or dies. The churches argument against gay marriage is hypocritical as alter boys are the churches favorite target.

I was replying to Mark regarding his argument that the church give money to those affected. And was trying to argue that the church has given 2.6 billion to the victims in the US alone.

Quote:The Crusades shouldn't be justified by one Kings cry for help

Why not?

Quote:The Catholic version of natural law is:

The Catholic Church understands human beings to consist of body and mind, the physical and the non-physical (or soul perhaps), and that the two are inextricably linked. Humans are capable of discerning the difference between good and evil because they have a conscience. There are many manifestations of the good that we can pursue. Some, like procreation, are common to other animals, while others, like the pursuit of truth, are inclinations peculiar to the capacities of human beings.

Which is completely different from Natural Law as atheists understand it.

Thomas Hobbes version

As used by Thomas Hobbes in his treatises Leviathan and De Cive, natural law is "a precept, or general rule, found out by reason, by which a man is forbidden to do that which is destructive of his life, or takes away the means of preserving the same; and to omit that by which he thinks it may best be preserved."

Natural Law as we understand it in the modern sense:

A physical law or scientific law, according to the Oxford English dictionary, "is a theoretical principle deduced from particular facts, applicable to a defined group or class of phenomena, and expressible by the statement that a particular phenomenon always occurs if certain conditions be present."

What I was trying to point out here is that the church isn't the only group to have the concept that things have Natures. I tried to differentiate them simply by stating that the Catholic church believes that a things Nature comes from without meanwhile most atheistic or deistic philosophies would say that it comes from within the thing. I understand that different philosophers are going to have there own definitions however this is a very basic separation, sorry for the confusion.




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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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