A Pragmatist's Guide to God
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14-04-2017, 07:16 PM
A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 07:01 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  I remember when I was still green behind the ears too. I was a member of ravingatheist.com forum when I was an arrogant atheist. I've been humbled since.

How so? You no longer feel it's arrogant not to believe without evidence?


(14-04-2017 07:01 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  Natural theology calls for the belief in god be in reason.

Then it fails. It's irrational to believe without evidence.
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14-04-2017, 07:16 PM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2017 07:22 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 07:01 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  What is the real world though? Surely you know it by way of consciousness, ...

Hold up there Sally. You can't just leave that as an unsubstantiated bare assertion and then use it like it was a self-evident and indisputable axiom.

#sigh
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14-04-2017, 07:16 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 06:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(13-04-2017 08:06 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  Yes. Smile

Pragmatism looks at the indeterminable metaphysical problem of the existence of god, and tries to weave its way through empiricism and rationalism to come to decision on whether to believe or not by ways of the belief's consequences rather than its proof. It doesn't try to prove the existence of god, instead it helps you weigh the conseqences if you did believe or not. James believes that the spiritual life is one of the most important aspects to our humanity, and that religion is proof for this need of spirituality. So the burning question is, is the pragmatic belief in god worthy of a principle in one's life or does it fall short.

I hope this helps.

And it does a piss-poor job of it.
As a pragmatist, I see that there is no real benefit to believing in gods, and an incalculable benefit to not wasting the finite amount of existence I have with meaningless rituals and clouded thinking.
Chas,
Thank you for your reply. I think your statement sums up the consequences for you quite well. However, many yearn for spirituality, in something that's greater than themselves. I believe the rituals to be odd also. We can cut the religion out. James' father was religiously eccentric himself and didn't follow the cookie cutter religion of one size fits all.

Now what I do find interesting is that you guys who are hostile should look in the mirror and ask what your doing with your finite amount of existence staring at a computer screen replying to yours truly. The religious ceremony is meant to make one pious, a trait that is becoming rare these days.
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14-04-2017, 07:23 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 06:32 PM)Vera Wrote:  
(14-04-2017 06:29 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  How far can science get in describing reality?

Light years further than anything else we've got. Drinking Beverage

ETA: And hold the mayo hugs. Am currently in Brazil and getting plenty, thank you very much.

Science is great at describing the extrinsic properties of the world that it can view objectively, but it can't explain intrinsic properties that can only be experienced subjectively. This is the explanatory gap. If we take the brain, expand it to the size of the building, and step in, we will see mostly fat protein and water made of neurons, which mostly translates to axons, dendrites, and the synaptic firing between the dendrites. Nowhere in there do we see an idea, motive, desire, or sensation or feeling. These are intrinsic properties, and science has to do some soul searching, like Penrose believes, if science is going to try and tackle consciousness, for certainly part of reality is consciousness among the dread abysses and exploding stars.
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14-04-2017, 07:30 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 07:16 PM)Rachel Wrote:  
(14-04-2017 07:01 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  I remember when I was still green behind the ears too. I was a member of ravingatheist.com forum when I was an arrogant atheist. I've been humbled since.

How so? You no longer feel it's arrogant not to believe without evidence?

Then it fails. It's irrational to believe without evidence.

I was arrogant. I was rude, cynical, and bitter. I thought I had an ax to grind with religion because of how traditional religion defies decent morals. I saw the worst in religion and gave the religious a piece of my mind. I'm not being arrogant by saying I was arrogant. I am being truthful.
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14-04-2017, 07:38 PM (This post was last modified: 14-04-2017 09:08 PM by Vera.)
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 07:23 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  we will see mostly fat protein and water made of neurons, which mostly translates to axons, dendrites, and the synaptic firing between the dendrites. Nowhere in there do we see an idea, motive, desire, or sensation or feeling. These are intrinsic properties, and science has to do some soul searching, like Penrose believes, if science is going to try and tackle consciousness, for certainly part of reality is consciousness among the dread abysses and exploding stars.

If I were a bear and I needed sheer idiocy to survive hibernation, this here would last me a good five or six winters, easy.

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14-04-2017, 07:46 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 07:16 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  
(14-04-2017 06:27 PM)Chas Wrote:  And it does a piss-poor job of it.
As a pragmatist, I see that there is no real benefit to believing in gods, and an incalculable benefit to not wasting the finite amount of existence I have with meaningless rituals and clouded thinking.
Chas,
Thank you for your reply. I think your statement sums up the consequences for you quite well. However, many yearn for spirituality, in something that's greater than themselves.

A greater purpose does not require 'spirituality'.

Quote:I believe the rituals to be odd also. We can cut the religion out. James' father was religiously eccentric himself and didn't follow the cookie cutter religion of one size fits all.

Now what I do find interesting is that you guys who are hostile should look in the mirror and ask what your doing with your finite amount of existence staring at a computer screen replying to yours truly. The religious ceremony is meant to make one pious, a trait that is becoming rare these days.

The more rare, the better.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-04-2017, 07:50 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 07:16 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  The religious ceremony is meant to make one pious, a trait that is becoming rare these days.

I used to draw my Gwynnies to get all silly and stuff. Now I just look at her. Heart

But what do you think that is if it isn't science? Made an observation, formed an hypothesis, conducted an experiment, and now I'm all theoretical and stuff. Big Grin

First there was Gwynnies and then there was Gwynnite (glossing over the god showing up on the job site bit) but I'm not seeing how one goes from atheist to pragmatic god without that intermediary step. Huh

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14-04-2017, 07:54 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 07:23 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  
(14-04-2017 06:32 PM)Vera Wrote:  Light years further than anything else we've got. Drinking Beverage

ETA: And hold the mayo hugs. Am currently in Brazil and getting plenty, thank you very much.

Science is great at describing the extrinsic properties of the world that it can view objectively, but it can't explain intrinsic properties that can only be experienced subjectively. This is the explanatory gap. If we take the brain, expand it to the size of the building, and step in, we will see mostly fat protein and water made of neurons, which mostly translates to axons, dendrites, and the synaptic firing between the dendrites. Nowhere in there do we see an idea, motive, desire, or sensation or feeling. These are intrinsic properties, and science has to do some soul searching, like Penrose believes, if science is going to try and tackle consciousness, for certainly part of reality is consciousness among the dread abysses and exploding stars.

This is merely an argument from ignorance and personal incredulity.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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14-04-2017, 07:56 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(14-04-2017 07:30 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  
(14-04-2017 07:16 PM)Rachel Wrote:  How so? You no longer feel it's arrogant not to believe without evidence?

Then it fails. It's irrational to believe without evidence.

I was arrogant. I was rude, cynical, and bitter. I thought I had an ax to grind with religion because of how traditional religion defies decent morals. I saw the worst in religion and gave the religious a piece of my mind. I'm not being arrogant by saying I was arrogant. I am being truthful.

That had precisely nothing to do with her comments. Facepalm

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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