A Pragmatist's Guide to God
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15-04-2017, 02:12 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(15-04-2017 02:10 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  20 pages on, do we have anything except arguments from incredulity yet? I've given up looking.

Yup, science "doesn't know everything". No sane person ever claims that it does. So what? If that makes you uncomfortable and you have to insert woo into every gap of knowledge, then go nuts with it. Some of us are fine saying we don't know everything.

Nope, that's pretty much all that's been offered so far.... That's why I've been getting bored and playing a bit more rough than I otherwise would be.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-04-2017, 02:24 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
I can forgive a couple of AFI fallacies because people not used to critical thinking are very prone to such common errors. People don't get pulled up on it much in regular life.

But once it's been explained over and over and the same shit gets repeated, it's just someone blowing hot air; unable or unwilling to actually stop and think.

I have a website here which discusses the issues and terminology surrounding religion and atheism. It's hopefully user friendly to all.
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15-04-2017, 02:27 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(15-04-2017 02:24 PM)Robvalue Wrote:  I can forgive a couple of AFI fallacies because people not used to critical thinking are very prone to such common errors. People don't get pulled up on it much in regular life.

But once it's been explained over and over and the same shit gets repeated, it's just someone blowing hot air; unable or unwilling to actually stop and think.

Exactly.

DLJ Wrote:And, yes, the principle of freedom of expression works both ways... if someone starts shit, better shit is the best counter-argument.
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15-04-2017, 02:42 PM
A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(15-04-2017 12:46 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 12:38 PM)Rachel Wrote:  It actually doesn't answer my post, as Chas correctly pointed out. Paley's watch argument fails completely, as Darwin realized after having been a proponent of Paley's "Natural Theology."
Darwin disbelieves in Paley's watch argument because of the ugliness of what organisms do to each other. His disgust doesn't disprove.


It appears you don't understand the multiple refutations of Paley's watchmaker argument. Would it be worth my while to explain them to you or are you comfortable in your non-arrogance?
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15-04-2017, 02:43 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(15-04-2017 10:51 AM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  And if freewill is debunked then why I am talking to you guys?

Because you have no choice in the matter.
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Atheism: it's not just for communists any more!
America July 4 1776 - November 8 2016 RIP
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15-04-2017, 02:54 PM (This post was last modified: 15-04-2017 03:06 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(15-04-2017 12:46 PM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 12:38 PM)Rachel Wrote:  It actually doesn't answer my post, as Chas correctly pointed out. Paley's watch argument fails completely, as Darwin realized after having been a proponent of Paley's "Natural Theology."
Darwin disbelieves in Paley's watch argument because of the ugliness of what organisms do to each other. His disgust doesn't disprove.

There is no need to disprove anything. There is no watch to be found ... anywhere.
What Darwin thought about anything, at this point, is totally irrelevant. He happened, (just barely) to publish first, ideas that had been brewing in England for some time, among a number of observers.
Evolution has been confirmed by so many people in so many ways, and updated so may times with so much evidence, that invoking his name is irrelevant, at this point.
http://www.open.edu/openlearn/history-th...-evolution



Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein God has a plan for us. Please stop screwing it up with your prayers.
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15-04-2017, 03:03 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
Paley's Watch is so weak, now on the other hand the tornado in the junkyard assembling a 747, now that rings true.

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“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
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15-04-2017, 03:10 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(15-04-2017 10:19 AM)Stephen Pedersen Wrote:  
(15-04-2017 08:10 AM)whateverist Wrote:  I find plenty of "greater than myself" within the mystery that is my self. I don't yearn for that mystery to involve the titans of the universe. I am happy with very small 'gods', what some have called the other products of the psyche. The upshot is the same, I am a part - not the whole. The other parts are also charged with consciousness from the same mysterious source. What they know does not need to be limited to what "I" consciously know.



Hmmm .. I wouldn't have chosen "piety" here. Why not reverence? Many have reverence for nature, the cosmos and our own existence. But "pious" has a lot of baggage acquired from the church.
I was simply defining piety as reverence towards something greater than oneself. I guess we're splitting hairs though.


While you did respond to the piety vs reverence hair splitting comment, I would have preferred to hear a response to the first part of my post. Why must 'gods' be conceived on a galactic scale? Beyond hubris, why would we think that our private apprehension of a special 'other' would need such a grandiose origins? Why not look for it as a far smaller, more local phenomenon coming from that which is where we experience it - in our heads?

“Tiger got to hunt, bird got to fly;
Man got to sit and wonder 'why, why, why?'
Tiger got to sleep, bird got to land;
Man got to tell himself he understand.”

― Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle
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15-04-2017, 03:13 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
(15-04-2017 02:54 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  There is no need to disprove anything. There is no watch to be found ... anywhere.

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There is only one really serious philosophical question, and that is suicide. -Camus
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15-04-2017, 03:46 PM
RE: A Pragmatist's Guide to God
Many people suffering from some form of ignorance are quite proud of it. You have to give them time not only to realize their mistakes but to save face as well. Otherwise you just push them further in, which really isn't helpful.
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