A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
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17-04-2013, 07:13 AM
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(17-04-2013 12:33 AM)Heywood Jahblome Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 12:25 AM)Egor Wrote:  I think we have some free will. We have the choice to accept or reject Christ, for instance, but God can start or stop anything. Otherwise, He ain't "God."

Your prayer makes it sound like that was God's will someone build a bomb and use it to slaughter people.

It's uncomfortable, isn't it, seeing another true believer's world view played out in all of its ugly detail and thinking... they're at least as logically consistent in their beliefs as I am, given the Bible as my foundation. This is the problem at the heart of religion based on these old books. It is so hard to live morally, do good, be a good person, and still be consistent with those old books. There has to be a compromise. You either accept that you want to be a good person and mould your beliefs around a real moral framework, or you accept a broken moral framework and attest the truth of the book.

When a tragedy like this happens a book believer... a believer that God is all knowing, all loving, and all powerful must accept on some level that this is God's plan. An atheist is free to curse the evils of man, to take action to repair broken lives, and to seek justice and vengeance on those that committed the crime. A theist must accept that by purpose or neglect God had a role. The free will of man could easily have been tweaked to avoid the tragedy. God is not powerless in this situation. If it is, it is not God.

The only justification available is that God in some way "knows best" and is seeking some greater good out of this outcome. His ways are not our ways. We the beings created in his image just have too limited an understanding. We just don't understand morality or love. He has some higher morality or higher love that is sufficient to justify stepping back and allowing this to happen, or is sufficient to justify his active involvement in it.

... and Egor the theist wants to come along and rub the noses of those capable of morality in the immorality he bathes in, the immorality he drinks. The immorality of a God that involves himself in this type of event, or allows it to occur when he could easily have avoided it. He comes to teach that wrong is right, up is down, black is white, and that the universal monastic conciousness has a plan for everything (including itself?), loves us all, but loves just as much to see the blood of his children splattered across the face of this good earth he has given us.

In another thread the question was asked "What did you hate most about being a christian or a religious person?". For me the answer is this conflict between doing good - training and trusting in my moral judgement - and accepting the Bible. That's what I hate most about what I was and what many of those around me still are. Torn between good and God, while practising the doublespeak that defines God as good - that defines the supposed God's evil as good.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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17-04-2013, 10:28 AM
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(16-04-2013 04:41 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(16-04-2013 02:27 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Stop damaging the image of Christ.

Aren't you a Calvinist?

Yeah, but you're not.

So, you believe that you're being an a-hole based on the whims of Ed Gordon; not God.

The point being, if I want to speak to a China-man, I'm not going to speak to him in English; I'm going to speak to him in Chinese.

So, just to reiterate - stop damaging the name of Christ.

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17-04-2013, 11:44 AM
 
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(17-04-2013 05:42 AM)Joh Wrote:  And how do you make that decision to accept or reject Christ or to not believe in him at all?

I think you make it based on your knowledge about the world, your experience and reason and logic. You don't just decide what you believe. You evaluate the available information and come to a conclusion. I can't just believe whatever I want. Believe me, I tried Wink

You can try to bend, deny or ignore information but I don't think you can fight off the doubt that comes along with doing that forever? Or can you?

So you have doubt. I have doubts all the time--constantly. I choose to believe that Jesus Christ is right, that what he said is absolutely true, even if I don't quite get it at this time.

And here's how you accept Christ: You desire perfection. You realize you are not perfect. You desire to die to what you are and be reborn as the spirit of Christ, then you confess (in the mirror if you have to) that you are Christ and no longer what you were before. Christ is your new identity. And then you choose to believe it.

You can follow that up with communion: On the next seasonal equinox take some bread and wine (or grape juice) and take a moment to meditate on the idea that it is the spiritual body and blood of Christ, then consume it.

Then choose to believe it.

The theif on the cross next to Jesus realized he was a sinner and that Christ was the son of God, and he asked to be remembered by him in Paradise. That was all that was needed for his salvation. It can be that simple.
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17-04-2013, 01:34 PM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2013 06:53 PM by Heathen.)
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(16-04-2013 08:32 PM)Heathen Wrote:  
(16-04-2013 04:45 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(16-04-2013 02:39 PM)Heathen Wrote:  Since your god decided who would be hit by shrapnel and who would be missed, why would you pray for those who he chose to maim or kill? This was god's plan after all.

And no prayer for the souls who may be burning in hell? No christian compassion for them? Seems to me that they need it the most.

Why pray for understanding of this? God will either reveal it to you or he won't. Are you attempting to sway his decision or something?
What do you think prayer is? Assuming God exists, there is no need for us to actually pray to Him; He knows what we need and want. So who is prayer for? Prayers aren't magic spells, you know.
I don't have any an answers to that, despite praying for 20 years. I decided that it was pointless. That was one part in my becoming an atheist. Can you answer those questions? I can't, but if you can give me an answer, I'm all ears.

I'm surprised that I haven't had a reply to this. Is it perhaps because you don't have any answers either? It's fine if you don't. It's just that since you are the one doing the praying I just assumed that you had an opinion on the subject.

"Which is more likely: that the whole natural order is suspended, or that a jewish minx should tell a lie?"- David Hume
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17-04-2013, 01:54 PM
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(17-04-2013 11:44 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 05:42 AM)Joh Wrote:  And how do you make that decision to accept or reject Christ or to not believe in him at all?

I think you make it based on your knowledge about the world, your experience and reason and logic. You don't just decide what you believe. You evaluate the available information and come to a conclusion. I can't just believe whatever I want. Believe me, I tried Wink

You can try to bend, deny or ignore information but I don't think you can fight off the doubt that comes along with doing that forever? Or can you?

So you have doubt. I have doubts all the time--constantly. I choose to believe that Jesus Christ is right, that what he said is absolutely true, even if I don't quite get it at this time.

And here's how you accept Christ: You desire perfection. You realize you are not perfect. You desire to die to what you are and be reborn as the spirit of Christ, then you confess (in the mirror if you have to) that you are Christ and no longer what you were before. Christ is your new identity. And then you choose to believe it.

You can follow that up with communion: On the next seasonal equinox take some bread and wine (or grape juice) and take a moment to meditate on the idea that it is the spiritual body and blood of Christ, then consume it.

Then choose to believe it.

The theif on the cross next to Jesus realized he was a sinner and that Christ was the son of God, and he asked to be remembered by him in Paradise. That was all that was needed for his salvation. It can be that simple.

It's impossible to choose to believe. Either you believe or you don't.

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17-04-2013, 01:57 PM
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(17-04-2013 01:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 11:44 AM)Egor Wrote:  So you have doubt. I have doubts all the time--constantly. I choose to believe that Jesus Christ is right, that what he said is absolutely true, even if I don't quite get it at this time.

And here's how you accept Christ: You desire perfection. You realize you are not perfect. You desire to die to what you are and be reborn as the spirit of Christ, then you confess (in the mirror if you have to) that you are Christ and no longer what you were before. Christ is your new identity. And then you choose to believe it.

You can follow that up with communion: On the next seasonal equinox take some bread and wine (or grape juice) and take a moment to meditate on the idea that it is the spiritual body and blood of Christ, then consume it.

Then choose to believe it.

The theif on the cross next to Jesus realized he was a sinner and that Christ was the son of God, and he asked to be remembered by him in Paradise. That was all that was needed for his salvation. It can be that simple.

It's impossible to choose to believe. Either you believe or you don't.

One can choose to ignore evidence.
What some call "belief" I would consider calling "choosing to ignore evidence".

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17-04-2013, 02:28 PM (This post was last modified: 17-04-2013 02:43 PM by GirlyMan.)
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(17-04-2013 10:28 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, you believe that you're being an a-hole based on the whims of Ed Gordon; not God.

Ed's not a Christian, he's not even a Veridican, he's an Ego®ian of the Gordonian sect from the Planet Bizarro. He really is clueless not only wrt rational argument, he is ignorant to meaning of The Word. At least KC tries his best to live The Word while admitting he's got no fucking metaphysical clue as to a postmortem preservation of identity. Jeremy is at least honest about the limitations of his belief. Ego® is not.

(17-04-2013 11:44 AM)Egor Wrote:  And here's how you accept Christ: You desire perfection. You realize you are not perfect. You desire to die to what you are and be reborn as the spirit of Christ, then you confess (in the mirror if you have to) that you are Christ and no longer what you were before. Christ is your new identity. And then you choose to believe it.

No, that's not it, that's not it at all. It is to recognize that I've been Christ all along, no perfection required, no belief necessary, no bullshit rebirth or promise of an afterlife required, just realization. There have been many Christs before and after Jesus. There will be many more. You just have to live it, there is no need to dress it up with fanciful untenable and unfulfillable promises, you just do it. ...

Stark's Commandment: Try not be an asshole.
Girly's First Amendment: Unless it's called for.
Manly's Second Amendment: See Stark's Commandment, Girly, 'cause you can come awfully fucking close to being an uncalled-for asshole.
Girly's Third Amendment: Yes dear. Point taken.

KC lives it well, and you Ed, frankly, suck at it. This atheist GirlyMan is closer to Christ than you will ever be if you don't make a substantial course redirection.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
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I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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17-04-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(17-04-2013 01:57 PM)earmuffs Wrote:  
(17-04-2013 01:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  It's impossible to choose to believe. Either you believe or you don't.

One can choose to ignore evidence.
What some call "belief" I would consider calling "choosing to ignore evidence".

That's a trifle elitist, evidence is not of much use if you unequipped to understand it, weather through a lack of understanding, conflicting world view or many other reasons.

Of course a lot of us take the word of others that evidence is compelling, there are many areas of science I'm forced to take on faith, as I know nothing about those fields. Many areas are easier take as there is secondary evidence through the technology they allow, but there are plenty of areas with little to no technical applications I have to take on faith.

However, Egor is just an ignorant shit stirrer, which is really all that matters here really.

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17-04-2013, 10:51 PM
 
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(17-04-2013 01:34 PM)Heathen Wrote:  I'm surprised that I haven't had a reply to this. Is it perhaps because you don't have any answers either? It's fine if you don't. It's just that since you are the one doing the praying I just assumed that you had an opinion on the subject.

Ask one question. Don't throw three or four at me so I have to write a book if I'm going to respond to you. I don't remember what you posted or why I didn't respond, so just start over with one question, and I'll be glad to give it my best shot or tell you "I don't know."
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17-04-2013, 10:56 PM
 
RE: A Prayer for Boston and for Us All
(17-04-2013 01:54 PM)Dom Wrote:  It's impossible to choose to believe. Either you believe or you don't.

Nonsense. I could be an atheist if I just turned my head in that direction. You know as much about the existence of God as I do. You may even know more, or have been exposed to more. You know as well as I do that atheism can't be confirmed and in some ways doesn't even make sense. On the other hand you know that if God exists, He's probably something we don't fully comprehend and that all religions are doing what they can to understand Him.

You know all this. You choose to be an atheist. You can choose to believe in Christ. You just don't want to.
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