A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
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29-03-2016, 11:57 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 11:49 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 11:08 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Perhaps you can elaborate on this, how is forgiving someone disrespectful and misanthropic?

Your notion that it is moving is what I am referring to by saying it is disrespecting and misanthropic.

That is the point I find stunning. It beckons this feeling of thinking so little of humanity to phrase someones forgiving actions as moving, wow, remarkable, etc.

So being moved by acts of forgiveness is misanthropic and disrespectful?
How so?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-03-2016, 12:08 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 11:57 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 11:49 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Your notion that it is moving is what I am referring to by saying it is disrespecting and misanthropic.

That is the point I find stunning. It beckons this feeling of thinking so little of humanity to phrase someones forgiving actions as moving, wow, remarkable, etc.

So being moved by acts of forgiveness is misanthropic and disrespectful?
How so?

it is a written statement of impressiveness or noting it as positive than what could of done with their hatred as you put.

Idk, maybe it isn't. Maybe you're "moved" every time someone drops a penny in a charity donation box or says thanks when someone holds open a door to them. And that you don't think it means it's something impressive and unanticipated to the point of noteworthiness.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-03-2016, 12:42 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 12:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  it is a written statement of impressiveness or noting it as positive than what could of done with their hatred as you put.

Idk, maybe it isn't. Maybe you're "moved" every time someone drops a penny in a charity donation box or says thanks when someone holds open a door to them. And that you don't think it means it's something impressive and unanticipated to the point of noteworthiness.

So you don't find the act of forgiveness afforded to the Charleston shooters, by relatives of the victims family, moving? and find the act comparable to someone holding a door, or dropping a penny in a donation box?

And you haven't really clarified that even if one were moved by people donating to a charity box, or holding a door, or any minor kindness, why that's misanthropic or disrespectful?

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-03-2016, 12:59 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(22-03-2016 10:18 AM)SYZ Wrote:  A question raised on Quora.com...

"From a Christian point of view, is it better to be an atheist that does good works, a Christian that does no good works (and is generally selfish) or a Christian that does bad things—murder, rape, pedophilia, etc?"

• Will God allow a pedophile to repent of his sins and enter heaven?
• Do Christians judge you more by the beliefs in your head, or by your behaviour toward your fellow man?

Consider

The most solid doctrine I've found on this topic is that repentance saves and anything can be forgiven. This means that belief is secondary to good actions. The reason I say this is the most solid doctrine is because it's the most just, which is really the issue here. The goal of justice is to bring about repentance and to protect people from eachother. This doctrine does the former rather well, and in turn the latter. You don't have to protect people from people who have (genuinely) repented. Religious beliefs such as this one provide a way to deal with unknown crimes by making them appear known in the eyes of the offender.
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29-03-2016, 01:19 PM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2016 01:24 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 12:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 12:08 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  it is a written statement of impressiveness or noting it as positive than what could of done with their hatred as you put.

Idk, maybe it isn't. Maybe you're "moved" every time someone drops a penny in a charity donation box or says thanks when someone holds open a door to them. And that you don't think it means it's something impressive and unanticipated to the point of noteworthiness.

So you don't find the act of forgiveness afforded to the Charleston shooters, by relatives of the victims family, moving? and find the act comparable to someone holding a door, or dropping a penny in a donation box?

And you haven't really clarified that even if one were moved by people donating to a charity box, or holding a door, or any minor kindness, why that's misanthropic or disrespectful?

No, I don't find it comparable to that. At times I can be confusing, I really don't think looking over these past posts that I am. I think you're being facetious to a point that It's silly now.

I don't think it's something astonishing or rare for humans to do. That's the simple point dingis. It's not moving, it's not impressively stunning to see such reaction. It just happens to seem you think it is something special. I would more anticipate or see the expectation being there for people to want perpetrators to get help over being merely punished. It's not as if most people really act or react in the heaven/hell scenario with desire for all people acting against them viciously to go to hell.

I did clarify it.. Because it comes off that you think so little of humanity that an act of forgiveness is an overwhelmingly positive thing. Instead of it being something you would otherwise believe humans would do in a related scenario. I added the other examples of "moving" because I did realize, maybe you just think moving is a minimal worthless measure of value. Not overwhelmingly positive as I would define moving. The soldier diving over the grenade may be something moving... but the solider diving over the grenade he intently threw at his own soldiers before then jumping over it.. not so moving.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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29-03-2016, 01:28 PM (This post was last modified: 29-03-2016 02:16 PM by claywise.)
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
The whole "atheists are angry at a god they don't believe in" canard is yet another dimwitted oversimplification.

I know atheists who are "angry at god" only in that the concept of that god led people in their lives — often, perhaps usually, when they were gullible, fearful children dependent on those same people for survival — to feed them a lot of poisonous, unprovable claptrap and superstition that left them with feelings of fear, shame, guilt and yes, anger.

Believers should drop this line. It's idiotic.

Also, I'd like to burn down all the lovely billboards I see around the South informing me that, "Jesus is Lord — And You Know It!" Claiming to know the thoughts and feelings of others better than they do themselves is a characteristic of sociopaths and abusers.

God does not work in mysterious ways — he works in ways that are indistinguishable from his non-existence.
Jesus had a pretty rough weekend for your sins.
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29-03-2016, 02:13 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 01:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 12:42 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  So you don't find the act of forgiveness afforded to the Charleston shooters, by relatives of the victims family, moving? and find the act comparable to someone holding a door, or dropping a penny in a donation box?

And you haven't really clarified that even if one were moved by people donating to a charity box, or holding a door, or any minor kindness, why that's misanthropic or disrespectful?

No, I don't find it comparable to that. At times I can be confusing, I really don't think looking over these past posts that I am. I think you're being facetious to a point that It's silly now.

I don't think it's something astonishing or rare for humans to do. That's the simple point dingis. It's not moving, it's not impressively stunning to see such reaction. It just happens to seem you think it is something special. I would more anticipate or see the expectation being there for people to want perpetrators to get help over being merely punished. It's not as if most people really act or react in the heaven/hell scenario with desire for all people acting against them viciously to go to hell.

I don't know, perhaps you think the common response to someone shooting to death your loved ones, is forgive the perpetuator? Perhaps you're rarely moved yourself? I don't know. Perhaps you occupy a reality where forgiveness has little place, a concept that never meant anything to you, I don't know.

Perhaps you see your own self as someone who would easily forgive a person who did that to those you loved, and believe that no one should be moved by this gesture, because it just comes so natural to you. I don't know.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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29-03-2016, 05:36 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 02:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't know... I don't know... I don't know... I don't know...

It would seem that there's a lot you don't know? Encapsulated in a single comment! Maybe you should listen more to those that do know—such as atheists—and relieve your ignorance?

Wink

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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29-03-2016, 09:20 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 07:57 AM)ScottD Wrote:  You haven't taken the time to study the Bible, or you would know what you are saying is not true. You, like other atheists rely solely on what they hear from others regarding scripture.

I thank you for today's laugh of the day Scott!

As you often do too my friend. And I'm also betting that during the past 50 or more years, I've scrutinized your bible in far more depth than you've yet to. It may surprise you to learn that it's commonly acknowledged that the majority of long-term atheists have read all or more of the bible than most theists. A bit embarrassing?

And I'm more than sure your church preacher/minister/priest would be most disappointed to hear that you disregard hearing his pronouncements taken directly from scripture—seeing as you think hearsay is worthless.

I'm a creationist... I believe that man created God.
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29-03-2016, 09:42 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 07:57 AM)ScottD Wrote:  You haven't taken the time to study the Bibe, or you would know what you are saying is not true. You, loike other atheists rely solely on what they hear from others regarding scripture.

Well, Scott, I'm an atheist and I first read the Bible over 50 years ago. I know all the major storylines quite well, in fact.

I also have reason to suspect that I know the Bible better than you know the Elder Edda or the Heart Sutra or the Daodejing.
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