A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
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30-03-2016, 06:22 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 05:36 PM)SYZ Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 02:13 PM)Tomasia Wrote:  I don't know... I don't know... I don't know... I don't know...

It would seem that there's a lot you don't know? Encapsulated in a single comment! Maybe you should listen more to those that do know—such as atheists—and relieve your ignorance?

Wink

Yes, there's lot I don't know about why Clydlee believes it's misanthropic and disrespectful to be moved by an act of forgiveness. I'm all ears when its come to his pending response.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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30-03-2016, 07:12 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(30-03-2016 06:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(29-03-2016 05:36 PM)SYZ Wrote:  It would seem that there's a lot you don't know? Encapsulated in a single comment! Maybe you should listen more to those that do know—such as atheists—and relieve your ignorance?

Wink

Yes, there's lot I don't know about why Clydlee believes it's misanthropic and disrespectful to be moved by an act of forgiveness. I'm all ears when its come to his pending response.

Tongue I told you 3 times, i don't think it can be any clearer than that.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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30-03-2016, 07:36 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(30-03-2016 07:12 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 06:22 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Yes, there's lot I don't know about why Clydlee believes it's misanthropic and disrespectful to be moved by an act of forgiveness. I'm all ears when its come to his pending response.

Tongue I told you 3 times, i don't think it can be any clearer than that.

I can read over all your post, and the only part that's clear is the fact that you don't find the act moving, but yet no clarity on what you find it misanthropic and disrespectful for others to be moved by it.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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30-03-2016, 07:42 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
You say potato, I say potato, you say tomato, I say tomasia, potato potato, tomato tomato, let's call the whole thing off.
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30-03-2016, 07:45 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
I find it misanthropic and disrespectful....
(29-03-2016 01:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Because it comes off that you think so little of humanity that an act of forgiveness is an overwhelmingly positive thing.
and
(29-03-2016 11:49 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It beckons this feeling of thinking so little of humanity to phrase someones forgiving actions as moving, wow[ing], remarkable, etc.

but OOOOOH if we call the whole thing off then we must part, and if we part... idk any more after that.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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30-03-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(30-03-2016 07:45 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I find it misanthropic and disrespectful....
(29-03-2016 01:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Because it comes off that you think so little of humanity that an act of forgiveness is an overwhelmingly positive thing.
and
(29-03-2016 11:49 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  It beckons this feeling of thinking so little of humanity to phrase someones forgiving actions as moving, wow[ing], remarkable, etc.

but OOOOOH if we call the whole thing off then we must part, and if we part... idk any more after that.

Ok, though it doesn't follow.

I tend to be moved by acts by what for others might be seemingly mundane things, to give an example. I had recently went to my nephews soccer game, with kids and parents of various ethnicities playing together, talking together, as a community, with no visible lines because of their skin color, etc... I was moved by this, because when I was a kid, this just didn't really exist, kids weren't allowed to play with us because we were brown, friends would get attacked on playgrounds because they weren't white, etc... That it was unavoidable to not see yourself as different, rather than as a part of the whole.

So when I see my little nieces and nephews, and recognize that our little world has changed since then, that they'll likely not relive the experiences we did when we were their age, that they are accepted, and not pushed to feel uncomfortable in their own skin, I was moved by that.

I don't see anything misanthropic, or disrespectful in me being moved here.

When it comes to the act of forgiveness by the relatives of the victim of the Charleston shooting, I see the act of one looking past their hatred and contempt for a person who killed their love ones, to extend concern for the perpetuator, to forgive him, to have the sort of strength to do so, as a moving thing, not because I doubt that others are able to do the same, but even personally, that it would be difficult thing for even me to do. If you killed those I loved the last thing I would think of is forgiving you, but more given to a desire to see you hung, and punished, desiring that you feel the sort of pain you put me through, etc... To turn from hatred, to transform hatred to love, that to me is a moving thing.

I think this is why most people who are moved by such an act, are moved by it. I see nothing misanthropic or disrespectful in that. But rather a matter of recognizing something beautiful in that.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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30-03-2016, 12:58 PM (This post was last modified: 30-03-2016 01:02 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(30-03-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 07:45 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I find it misanthropic and disrespectful....
and

but OOOOOH if we call the whole thing off then we must part, and if we part... idk any more after that.

Ok, though it doesn't follow.

I tend to be moved by acts by what for others might be seemingly mundane things, to give an example. I had recently went to my nephews soccer game, with kids and parents of various ethnicities playing together, talking together, as a community, with no visible lines because of their skin color, etc... I was moved by this, because when I was a kid, this just didn't really exist, kids weren't allowed to play with us because we were brown, friends would get attacked on playgrounds because they weren't white, etc... That it was unavoidable to not see yourself as different, rather than as a part of the whole.

So when I see my little nieces and nephews, and recognize that our little world has changed since then, that they'll likely not relive the experiences we did when we were their age, that they are accepted, and not pushed to feel uncomfortable in their own skin, I was moved by that.

I don't see anything misanthropic, or disrespectful in me being moved here.

When it comes to the act of forgiveness by the relatives of the victim of the Charleston shooting, I see the act of one looking past their hatred and contempt for a person who killed their love ones, to extend concern for the perpetuator, to forgive him, to have the sort of strength to do so, as a moving thing, not because I doubt that others are able to do the same, but even personally, that it would be difficult thing for even me to do. If you killed those I loved the last thing I would think of is forgiving you, but more given to a desire to see you hung, and punished, desiring that you feel the sort of pain you put me through, etc... To turn from hatred, to transform hatred to love, that to me is a moving thing.

I think this is why most people who are moved by such an act, are moved by it. I see nothing misanthropic or disrespectful in that. But rather a matter of recognizing something beautiful in that.

Well I did add in, maybe you view being moved as something still possibly mundane, so you could of just responded to that element affirmatively before.

I find that disrespectful to people. You're idea comes off as thinking that people were horrid and seemingly still are. That now when you see people not being racist, that comes off as a rewarding moving moment to you. Well yeah, look they're not racist a-holes, that is wonderful.

I guess to me it just comes off that you really expect people to be racist or not forgiving, and you're expectation not being met on that grounds is moving. It seems to really stem from thinking humans are low and still as you see it cruel or racist on the base.

Which could be opposed per say in the view of seeing people not be racist, cruel, and actually being forgiving and just experiencing that as human action of the expected.

This also reminds me of a story of a friend of mine just a month ago. He mentioned how while he was working he knocked over a couple of things and a random highschool-college age girl walking by went around a shelf and helped him out then walked on by. He was seriously flabbergasted at this and was acting like this was an amazing act of kindness and proclaiming nobody does that anymore. As he recounted that to me I stood baffled at how low he really has become in his view of humanity. (well for him I know he really does have a low view as he recently got on facebook and that has tarnished his view of people even more) Though regardless of what I said to him he was wowed by this what he deemed to be rare act of kindness. These are views I guess I don't see and don't see people acting like they still have though.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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30-03-2016, 01:19 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(30-03-2016 12:58 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(30-03-2016 10:59 AM)Tomasia Wrote:  Ok, though it doesn't follow.

I tend to be moved by acts by what for others might be seemingly mundane things, to give an example. I had recently went to my nephews soccer game, with kids and parents of various ethnicities playing together, talking together, as a community, with no visible lines because of their skin color, etc... I was moved by this, because when I was a kid, this just didn't really exist, kids weren't allowed to play with us because we were brown, friends would get attacked on playgrounds because they weren't white, etc... That it was unavoidable to not see yourself as different, rather than as a part of the whole.

So when I see my little nieces and nephews, and recognize that our little world has changed since then, that they'll likely not relive the experiences we did when we were their age, that they are accepted, and not pushed to feel uncomfortable in their own skin, I was moved by that.

I don't see anything misanthropic, or disrespectful in me being moved here.

When it comes to the act of forgiveness by the relatives of the victim of the Charleston shooting, I see the act of one looking past their hatred and contempt for a person who killed their love ones, to extend concern for the perpetuator, to forgive him, to have the sort of strength to do so, as a moving thing, not because I doubt that others are able to do the same, but even personally, that it would be difficult thing for even me to do. If you killed those I loved the last thing I would think of is forgiving you, but more given to a desire to see you hung, and punished, desiring that you feel the sort of pain you put me through, etc... To turn from hatred, to transform hatred to love, that to me is a moving thing.

I think this is why most people who are moved by such an act, are moved by it. I see nothing misanthropic or disrespectful in that. But rather a matter of recognizing something beautiful in that.

Well I did add in, maybe you view being moved as something still possibly mundane, so you could of just responded to that element affirmatively before.

I find that disrespectful to people. You're idea comes off as thinking that people were horrid and seemingly still are. That now when you see people not being racist, that comes off as a rewarding moving moment to you. Well yeah, look they're not racist a-holes, that is wonderful.

I guess to me it just comes off that you really expect people to be racist or not forgiving, and you're expectation not being met on that grounds is moving. It seems to really stem from thinking humans are low and still as you see it cruel or racist on the base.

Which could be opposed per say in the view of seeing people not be racist, cruel, and actually being forgiving and just experiencing that as human action of the expected.

This also reminds me of a story of a friend of mine just a month ago. He mentioned how while he was working he knocked over a couple of things and a random highschool-college age girl walking by went around a shelf and helped him out then walked on by. He was seriously flabbergasted at this and was acting like this was an amazing act of kindness and proclaiming nobody does that anymore. As he recounted that to me I stood baffled at how low he really has become in his view of humanity. (well for him I know he really does have a low view as he recently got on facebook and that has tarnished his view of people even more) Though regardless of what I said to him he was wowed by this what he deemed to be rare act of kindness. These are views I guess I don't see and don't see people acting like they still have though.

I do think humanity is flawed, and imperfect, just like myself. I wouldn't call this misanthropic though.

But what do you mean by a low view here, to see such acts as not the normal, or expected human response? Do you imagine a world in which kindness is the norm? I would think indifference more so than any else is the norm, which is more easily noted when your venture out more into the world.

"Tell me, muse, of the storyteller who has been thrust to the edge of the world, both an infant and an ancient, and through him reveal everyman." ---Homer the aged poet.

"In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it."
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30-03-2016, 01:25 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(29-03-2016 07:57 AM)ScottD Wrote:  You haven't taken the time to study the Bibe, or you would know what you are saying is not true. You, loike other atheists rely solely on what they hear from others regarding scripture.
To say we never studied your holy book is disrespectful or outright lying. Do you honestly think those of us who were Christian just suddenly decided we're atheist? Some of us have read the Bible more times than any other book or collection.

To say we didn't study it is tantamount to saying the stereotypical and incorrect assumptions we're angry at your deity or that we had incomplete training or upbringing.

It's wrong and disrespectful, and it shows your unwillingness to hear what others say, especially if they disagree.
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30-03-2016, 02:16 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
In my opinion if hell exists and even a non-theist would have a chance to change their mind and go to heaven, hell would be nearly empty. That being said, if the god of the bible or the muslim god were the one that turned out to exist exactly as described I would gladly walk barefoot into hell. In my view, if one of those 2 actually existed heaven would be an eternity with little Anthony Freemont (Twilight Zone). No thanks.
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