A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
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22-03-2016, 04:58 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(22-03-2016 04:18 PM)ScottD Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 03:53 PM)julep Wrote:  So your answer seems to be, "no true Christian would be a pedophile." Is that correct?

You have entirely dodged the question, which was, is it better to be an atheist that does good works, a Christian that does no good works, or a Christian that does bad things?

The verse I quoted says NONE are better. that is also my POV.

The question wasn't, "are all of these people considered sinners by your god"? The first question was, which of these three types of people is the best, according to a Christian POV? If you say, they're all equally offensive to god, I think that's begging the question, we are asking how as a Christian you would judge them.

As a Christian, I am commanded to not judge them.

And you still have not addressed the point about a sinning Christian. Let's go down from pedophilia to, say, telling a lie. Would a Christian who told a lie be forgiven? What about a Christian who knowingly sells a lousy car? What about a Christian who tithes but resents having to pay? Presumably all of these Christians still know in their hearts that their actions are wrong. Where does the scale stop sliding? Are these Christians better than a truthful atheist who gladly gives to charity?

) Christians are not better than anyone.
) Christians are sinners right along side of atheists.
) Christians are forgiven.
) Atheists can be only by believing

These supporting verses are also my POV.

Isaiah 64:6
All of us have become like one who is unclean,
and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags;
we all shrivel up like a leaf,
and like the wind our sins sweep us away.

John 3:16

16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

If I read your response correctly, then, your answers to the OP questions are: you are not allowed to judge other people's conduct, so you won't concede any pragmatic difference between an ethical atheist and an unethical Christian, except that the unethical Christian is forgiven.

All righty. In that case, it does sound as though you expect to be sharing eternity with a bunch of pedophiles, murderers, and (shudder) used car salesmen. That doesn't sound like much fun.
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22-03-2016, 10:56 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(22-03-2016 10:18 AM)SYZ Wrote:  A question raised on Quora.com...

"From a Christian point of view, is it better to be an atheist that does good works, a Christian that does no good works (and is generally selfish) or a Christian that does bad things—murder, rape, pedophilia, etc?"

• Will God allow a pedophile to repent of his sins and enter heaven?
• Do Christians judge you more by the beliefs in your head, or by your behaviour toward your fellow man?

Consider

From a Christian point of view.. It's messy. Atheists who do good works get no where. Christians that do no works are punished "faith without works is dead" Christians who do horrible things.. Their punishment is hard.. But if they "repent" it's forgiven. From a Christian point of view you would think that Christian with no works us better. But.. If the horrible Christian is legit saved and asks for forgiveness.. The slate is wiped clean. But I also feel that Paul said something against doing crap just because your saved.
creeps can in fact repent and go to heaven. (I say in fact but I'm standing on a Christian point of view)
Christians say they don't judge. But everyone does. They look at your beliefs first. They don't want to be unequally yolked.. If you are a good person some will acknowledge it but in the end.. You're just another nonbeliever.
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22-03-2016, 11:06 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
But.. The athiest would go to hell so that's no good. We didn't say if the bad Christian did works? The Christian with no works is shamed and punished.. But if the bad Christian doesn't have works either (you can be a piece of shit and still preach about Jesus- that's considered a work) then they would be right along side the workless Christian. Watch their rewards go up in flames. But if the bad Christian does not repent.. (I need to find what Paul was saying) then they are super duper punished and casts into the outer shadows of heaven I'm sure.
So.. Messy.
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22-03-2016, 11:20 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
Romans 6:22-23 Romans 8:1-4 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you free from the law of sin and death. For what the law was powerless to do because it was weakened by the flesh, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

So bad Christian is accounted for.. And considered sinless.. So him and workless are in same boat?
Sorry it's so much.. I was really interested and I think I got carried away/ confused myself.
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22-03-2016, 11:25 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
It woulda kinda hurt my feelings knowing that my mother would enjoy her eternity of paradise in heaven, knowing that I (her only son) will be burning in hell for all eternity. Not cool, Mom.
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23-03-2016, 12:05 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
Your question is initially posed to theists in general, but I highly suspect that you really meant only Christian theists. Dodgy
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23-03-2016, 12:19 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(22-03-2016 02:16 PM)SYZ Wrote:  Welcome to the TTA forums Scott. Smile

Unfortunately, simply quoting the Christian bible chapter and verse doesn't really address my question as it's seen from your personal point of view. It's not acceptable here that theists use their bible as so-called "evidence" for anything, as it's yet to be proved by anyone that it actually is the work of a purported omnipotent entity. So... do you agree that paedophiles should be welcome in heaven if they repent of their sins?

I disagree mate. Full knowledge of scripture comes in very handy in these stupid things.

If you are NOT a xian, you do NOT get to heaven. There is loads of scripture to back this claim. I will post some of what I recall.

Why some are denied.

John 8:43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Ephesians 2:3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

2 Timothy 3:8 KJV Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

This next stuff gets xians out of trouble.

Psalm 119:1 ALEPH. Blessed are the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.
Psalm 119:2 Blessed are they that keep his testimonies, and that seek him with the whole heart.
Psalm 119:3 They also do no iniquity: they walk in his ways.

1st John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin .

Romans 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Romans 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:

John 8:11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more.
(Jesus took the sin away from the sinner instead of casting the first stone)

2 Corinthians 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Colossians 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Revelation 1:5 And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood ,

John 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

2nd Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

This next is interesting. Look carefully at the wording.

2nd Timothy 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself.

As long as jebus believes in himself, the xians are free. For xians are unable to truly lose faith. A reason why they often misunderstand former xians who become atheists.

John 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
John 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
Romans 8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

1st Peter 1:5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Hebrews 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.

Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

Xians can't even sin!

1st John 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1st John 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1st John 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1st John 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth

1st John 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Remember predestination? Look at who and whom gets the chop.

Psalm 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies.

Acts 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Romans 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Romans 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

Romans 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that callethWink

2nd Timothy 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

2nd Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
2nd Thessalonians 2:12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
2nd Thessalonians 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
Ephesians 1:5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation , ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I could go on and on......

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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23-03-2016, 05:08 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(22-03-2016 10:18 AM)SYZ Wrote:  A question raised on Quora.com...

"From a Christian point of view, is it better to be an atheist that does good works, a Christian that does no good works (and is generally selfish) or a Christian that does bad things—murder, rape, pedophilia, etc?"

• Will God allow a pedophile to repent of his sins and enter heaven?
• Do Christians judge you more by the beliefs in your head, or by your behaviour toward your fellow man?

Consider

Yes, you'll get the salvation shuffle from Christians when you ask this using the "No True Christian" defense. And you can find loads of scripture to support BOTH SIDES.

I would say if you believe what the group you're in believes, you'll get a lot of excuse making for your actions. The pedophile priest problem in the Catholic church is a perfect example of this.

Gods derive their power from post-hoc rationalizations. -The Inquisition

Using the supernatural to explain events in your life is a failure of the intellect to comprehend the world around you. -The Inquisition
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23-03-2016, 07:30 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(22-03-2016 10:18 AM)SYZ Wrote:  A question raised on Quora.com...

"From a Christian point of view, is it better to be an atheist that does good works, a Christian that does no good works (and is generally selfish) or a Christian that does bad things—murder, rape, pedophilia, etc?"

When someone becomes a Christian he is reborn spiritually and receives a new nature which is incapable of sin. As long as we remain here on earth we still have our old nature and are capable of sinning but we can't continue in it as we could before. Some people profess to be Christians without being reborn and they are capable of living in sin just as any other unbeliever is. The Christians in your example are probably in the later category, merely professing to be Christian. In that case the atheist is better off. His good works won't gain entrance to Heaven for him but the severity of his punishment in Hell will be less.

Quote:• Will God allow a pedophile to repent of his sins and enter heaven?

Yes. The only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Quote:• Do Christians judge you more by the beliefs in your head, or by your behaviour toward your fellow man?

Consider

Christians aren't able to read my mind so they can only judge my actions.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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23-03-2016, 07:36 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 07:30 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 10:18 AM)SYZ Wrote:  A question raised on Quora.com...

"From a Christian point of view, is it better to be an atheist that does good works, a Christian that does no good works (and is generally selfish) or a Christian that does bad things—murder, rape, pedophilia, etc?"

When someone becomes a Christian he is reborn spiritually and receives a new nature which is incapable of sin. As long as we remain here on earth we still have our old nature and are capable of sinning but we can't continue in it as we could before. Some people profess to be Christians without being reborn and they are capable of living in sin just as any other unbeliever is. The Christians in your example are probably in the later category, merely professing to be Christian. In that case the atheist is better off. His good works won't gain entrance to Heaven for him but the severity of his punishment in Hell will be less.

Quote:• Will God allow a pedophile to repent of his sins and enter heaven?

Yes. The only unforgiveable sin is blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.

Quote:• Do Christians judge you more by the beliefs in your head, or by your behaviour toward your fellow man?

Consider

Christians aren't able to read my mind so they can only judge my actions.

Such a pathetic and inexcusable ethical and moral standpoint. You and your kind are a disgrace. IMO at least.

NOTE: Member, Tomasia uses this site to slander other individuals. He then later proclaims it a joke, but not in public.
I will call him a liar and a dog here and now.
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