A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
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23-03-2016, 10:37 AM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2016 10:40 AM by Unbeliever.)
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 10:12 AM)ScottD Wrote:  My apologies, think my quotes are good now?

Well, your posts are legible now, so it's certainly a step up, but it isn't necessary to have your responses in quote tags at all. It's workable, but looks odd, and makes quoting you in turn more difficult.

Put quote tags around any part of a post from someone else that you want to highlight. You don't need to add any others. I'd go into more detail, but I am currently posting via phone and formatting is difficult. You can Google "bbcode quotes" for examples of how to work them, I believe.

Quote:My experience has been that alot (not all) of atheists
have some anger towards God. It's just a fact, I see it again and again.

Well, again, I would disagree.

I don't doubt that you've seen a lot of people who don't care much for the Christian god. He did ostensibly flood the world and kill everybody, after all, and he throws people who don't worship him into a pit of eternal torture. Telling people he's the goodest of the good guys can be a bit of a hard sell, and so a lot of atheists do hate the character. But they don't actually believe he exists.

Personally, I am largely indifferent towards the Christian god. He is, from my point of view, a fictional character, and the fact that he was written about by more than a dozen different authors over hundreds of years makes expecting any sort of consistency or coherence in his character rather silly. I do think that basing any sort of moral standard on him is pretty silly, and a lot of his character moments paint him as a fickle bastard, but I don't hate him any more than I hate, say, Darth Vader.

There are also atheists who think that the problem of evil is proof that, if there were a god, he'd have to be a pretty sick bastard, and so you get a lot of statements towards that end. I won't say that I necessarily disagree with this, but I do consider it largely irrelevant; until the existence of a god is actually established, I see little point in arguing over what he might be like.

So... No, I don't think most atheists hate God. They do, however, consider the Christian god to be a bit of an ass, and find it difficult to reconcile the idea of a loving god with the problems in the universe. From your point of view, this probably comes across as hating God, but it isn't precisely the same. It's not so much hatred of God as it is regarding the general idea - and the Christian implementation in particular - with general disdain.

Quote:There's a lot of anger towards Christians as well.

The vast majority of Christians who turn up on atheist forums are assholes. That's not so much a reflection of their beliefs as it is of the fact that most religious people who want to come here are self-righteous, condescending, and utterly determined to rub the stupid atheists' faces in their unassailable beliefs.

Those who aren't assholes, though, are more than welcome. Two of our longest-standing members, Aliza and kingschosen, are theists (though Aliza is a Jew rather than a Christian). And asshole atheists get treated the same way as asshole theists; see any thread by Agnostic Shane for examples.

I won't deny that there are members here who treat all religious visitors, even those who are respectful and honest in their discussions, with contempt, because atheists are people too and are just as likely as anyone else to be immature. But if you take a look at what we usually deal with, the standoffish nature of a lot of reactions here becomes a bit more understandable.

Quote:There's a difference between Religion and True Christianity. I wonder if anyone here could have that discussion in a civil manner?

Oh, certainly. It's just a matter of actually generating interest in the discussion, which might be difficult. As I've already mentioned, I don't find discussions of theology particularly interesting, considering that the existence of the deity in question hasn't been established yet, but I'm sure you can find someone.

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23-03-2016, 10:49 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 10:25 AM)unfogged Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 09:02 AM)ScottD Wrote:  My apologies, think my quotes are good now?

Better, but this business of quoting yourself is odd.

Quote:My experience has been that alot (not all) of atheists
have some anger towards God. It's just a fact, I see it again and again.

No, atheists don't believe any god exists and being angry at a fictional character makes no sense. Frustration at the actions of religions and religious people and at the waste of time, money, and effort over nothing is easy to misconstrue.

Quote:There's a lot of anger towards Christians as well. You can look at my posts since I've been on this site and see I've been insulted over and over.

You came in spouting generalizations about atheists and repeating the same old tired cliches that we hear over and over so you got back what you gave. There are other christians here who are treated with respect because they treat the atheists they encounter with respect.

(23-03-2016 09:02 AM)ScottD Wrote:  Again, not generalizing. Based purely on observation and personal experience.
I posted my point of view, I shot back at some shithead who decided to insult me.

Quote:I'm not here promoting religion. Religion can be very bad and we see examples of it all over the world. I actually get why a lot of folks are angry.
There's a difference between Religion and True Christianity. I wonder if anyone here could have that discussion in a civil manner?

No True Christian™ is another common refrain. There are thousands of christian sects and they all say they are right and the rest are misguided in one way or another. There has been no objectively demonstrable evidence for any of them so far but if you think you have a coherent definition of what "True Christianity" is and evidence to support the claim that it is not just mythology please present it.

Quote:A sect is a component of a religion.
The fact that you are "requiring" that I prove God's existence tells me you don't understand the most basic tenet of Christianity. Christianity is faith based, meaning there is no demonstrable evidence. No one has ever "proved" God's existence one way or the other. I don't have to support my claim. We're all presented with the same evidence and choices in life.
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23-03-2016, 10:54 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 10:49 AM)ScottD Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 10:25 AM)unfogged Wrote:  Better, but this business of quoting yourself is odd.


No, atheists don't believe any god exists and being angry at a fictional character makes no sense. Frustration at the actions of religions and religious people and at the waste of time, money, and effort over nothing is easy to misconstrue.


You came in spouting generalizations about atheists and repeating the same old tired cliches that we hear over and over so you got back what you gave. There are other christians here who are treated with respect because they treat the atheists they encounter with respect.



No True Christian™ is another common refrain. There are thousands of christian sects and they all say they are right and the rest are misguided in one way or another. There has been no objectively demonstrable evidence for any of them so far but if you think you have a coherent definition of what "True Christianity" is and evidence to support the claim that it is not just mythology please present it.

Quote:A sect is a component of a religion.
The fact that you are "requiring" that I prove God's existence tells me you don't understand the most basic tenet of Christianity. Christianity is faith based, meaning there is no demonstrable evidence. No one has ever "proved" God's existence one way or the other. I don't have to support my claim. We're all presented with the same evidence and choices in life.

Moses didn't even prove gods existence? wow, that's some rigid theology.

That's also perhaps the basic tenet to your view of Christianity and here is the flaw there, that's not the only view of Theism/Christianity or that particular god. You can actually quote jesus and functionally declared christianity is deed & commandment based and following the commandments are the way.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-03-2016, 10:59 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 10:37 AM)Unbeliever Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 10:12 AM)ScottD Wrote:  My apologies, think my quotes are good now?

Well, your posts are legible now, so it's certainly a step up, but it isn't necessary to have your responses in quote tags at all. It's workable, but looks odd, and makes quoting you in turn more difficult.

Put quote tags around any part of a post from someone else that you want to highlight. You don't need to add any others. I'd go into more detail, but I am currently posting via phone and formatting is difficult. You can Google "bbcode quotes" for examples of how to work them, I believe.

Quote:My experience has been that alot (not all) of atheists
have some anger towards God. It's just a fact, I see it again and again.

Well, again, I would disagree.

I don't doubt that you've seen a lot of people who don't care much for the Christian god. He did ostensibly flood the world and kill everybody, after all, and he throws people who don't worship him into a pit of eternal torture. Telling people he's the goodest of the good guys can be a bit of a hard sell, and so a lot of atheists do hate the character. But they don't actually believe he exists.

(23-03-2016 10:12 AM)ScottD Wrote:  That's kind of my point. How exactly did the non existent God flood the world and kill everybody?

Personally, I am largely indifferent towards the Christian god. He is, from my point of view, a fictional character, and the fact that he was written about by more than a dozen different authors over hundreds of years makes expecting any sort of consistency or coherence in his character rather silly. I do think that basing any sort of moral standard on him is pretty silly, and a lot of his character moments paint him as a fickle bastard, but I don't hate him any more than I hate, say, Darth Vader.

There are also atheists who think that the problem of evil is proof that, if there were a god, he'd have to be a pretty sick bastard, and so you get a lot of statements towards that end. I won't say that I necessarily disagree with this, but I do consider it largely irrelevant; until the existence of a god is actually established, I see little point in arguing over what he might be like.

So... No, I don't think most atheists hate God. They do, however, consider the Christian god to be a bit of an ass, and find it difficult to reconcile the idea of a loving god with the problems in the universe. From your point of view, this probably comes across as hating God, but it isn't precisely the same. It's not so much hatred of God as it is regarding the general idea - and the Christian implementation in particular - with general disdain.

Quote:There's a lot of anger towards Christians as well.

The vast majority of Christians who turn up on atheist forums are assholes. That's not so much a reflection of their beliefs as it is of the fact that most religious people who want to come here are self-righteous, condescending, and utterly determined to rub the stupid atheists' faces in their unassailable beliefs.

Those who aren't assholes, though, are more than welcome. Two of our longest-standing members, Aliza and kingschosen, are theists (though Aliza is a Jew rather than a Christian). And asshole atheists get treated the same way as asshole theists; see any thread by Agnostic Shane for examples.

I won't deny that there are members here who treat all religious visitors, even those who are respectful and honest in their discussions, with contempt, because atheists are people too and are just as likely as anyone else to be immature. But if you take a look at what we usually deal with, the standoffish nature of a lot of reactions here becomes a bit more understandable.

Quote:There's a difference between Religion and True Christianity. I wonder if anyone here could have that discussion in a civil manner?

Oh, certainly. It's just a matter of actually generating interest in the discussion, which might be difficult. As I've already mentioned, I don't find discussions of theology particularly interesting, considering that the existence of the deity in question hasn't been established yet, but I'm sure you can find someone.
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23-03-2016, 11:05 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 10:54 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 10:49 AM)ScottD Wrote:  

Moses didn't even prove gods existence? wow, that's some rigid theology.

(23-03-2016 10:49 AM)ScottD Wrote:  Moses certainly didn't prove anything to me? Can you prove that Moses existed?
Can you prove the story of Moses is true? How is it you use a fictional character to prove a point? Are you saying Moses proved God's existence? Wait, what???

That's also perhaps the basic tenet to your view of Christianity and here is the flaw there, that's not the only view of Theism/Christianity or that particular god. You can actually quote jesus and functionally declared christianity is deed & commandment based and following the commandments are the way.
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23-03-2016, 11:12 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 11:05 AM)ScottD Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 10:54 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Moses didn't even prove gods existence? wow, that's some rigid theology.


That's also perhaps the basic tenet to your view of Christianity and here is the flaw there, that's not the only view of Theism/Christianity or that particular god. You can actually quote jesus and functionally declared christianity is deed & commandment based and following the commandments are the way.

(23-03-2016 11:05 AM)ScottD Wrote:  Agreed, there are hundreds of flavors of Christianity. The basic tenet is salvation through belief in Christ alone. And a Christians behavior should reflect the teaching of Christ. It does not always, hence the need for salvation.
The basics are in the bible. Many sects, denominations etc add and subtract from the bible as they see fit. "True Christianity" is indeed, just the basics. Nothing else is needed.
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23-03-2016, 11:23 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 11:12 AM)ScottD Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:05 AM)ScottD Wrote:  

Yeah but the whole you have to believe in Christ thing doesn't even come form Jesus... it came from the guy who never met Jesus, go figure. So I don't know why that step isn't skipped over or how this proclamation of faith by a guy you have to have faith in that gives you no reason to have faith in, paul didn't rise from the dead or perform numerous great miracles, is the one whose ideas you would consider the basic tenant. Jesus and Gods actual works and words alone should be the base and core of christianity.

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23-03-2016, 11:35 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 11:23 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:12 AM)ScottD Wrote:  

Yeah but the whole you have to believe in Christ thing doesn't even come form Jesus... it came from the guy who never met Jesus, go figure. So I don't know why that step isn't skipped over or how this proclamation of faith by a guy you have to have faith in that gives you no reason to have faith in, paul didn't rise from the dead or perform numerous great miracles, is the one whose ideas you would consider the basic tenant. Jesus and Gods actual works and words alone should be the base and core of christianity.
Quote:Jesus said it many times.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Paul was only one author of the bible, there were 39. The old testament is filled with prophecy of Jesus coming. The new is filled with fulfillment of those prophecies.
Paul did perform miracles after Jesus ascended as did the other apostles. It was one of the reasons the early church spread and did not fade away after Jesus crucifixion.
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23-03-2016, 11:50 AM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 11:35 AM)ScottD Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:23 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Yeah but the whole you have to believe in Christ thing doesn't even come form Jesus... it came from the guy who never met Jesus, go figure. So I don't know why that step isn't skipped over or how this proclamation of faith by a guy you have to have faith in that gives you no reason to have faith in, paul didn't rise from the dead or perform numerous great miracles, is the one whose ideas you would consider the basic tenant. Jesus and Gods actual works and words alone should be the base and core of christianity.
Quote:Jesus said it many times.
Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Paul was only one author of the bible, there were 39. The old testament is filled with prophecy of Jesus coming. The new is filled with fulfillment of those prophecies.
Paul did perform miracles after Jesus ascended as did the other apostles. It was one of the reasons the early church spread and did not fade away after Jesus crucifixion.

Okay.. zero of that says anything to do with having faith or "believe in christ." Yes jesus also is quoted as saying follow the commandments too. His words and his guidance leads that way. His saying he is the way doesn't say, your main goal is to believe in me. When people ask him how to get into heaven his answer isn't merely believe in me. It's not his principal message at all.

prophecy or foretelling before hand.. doesn't equal-have faith in jesus. Other authors saying things differently than what paul said doesn't equal, have faith in jesus is the base principle. Anyway you think you want to put it. That "base" comes directly and clearly from 1 person... and it's interestingly the literally only way he can proclaim any connection.

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23-03-2016, 12:09 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 10:49 AM)ScottD Wrote:  A sect is a component of a religion.

With different beliefs than the other sects of the same religion. That's a problem.

Quote:The fact that you are "requiring" that I prove God's existence tells me you don't understand the most basic tenet of Christianity. Christianity is faith based, meaning there is no demonstrable evidence. No one has ever "proved" God's existence one way or the other. I don't have to support my claim. We're all presented with the same evidence and choices in life.

I'd say we're all presented with the same lack of evidence. That's one of the reasons for so many sects -- there is no way to determine who is correct and who is wrong.

Faith is the core problem here; it is not a virtue. Using faith you can believe anything since it does not require any evidence. That is not how I make decisions in any area of my life and, I would bet, not how you make decisions in any area except for your religious beliefs. If you are going to carve them out as separate from rational thought and evaluation and accept them on faith then we are at an impasse because that is as irrational as it gets from my perspective.

(23-03-2016 11:35 AM)ScottD Wrote:  Paul was only one author of the bible, there were 39. The old testament is filled with prophecy of Jesus coming.

Not according to the Jews.

Quote:The new is filled with fulfillment of those prophecies.

The NT was written by people who knew the OT and who had a vested interest in making it sound like their hero was fulfilling prophecies. It was cobbled together over a period of hundreds of years by people with various agendas; stories were edited, added, and dropped according to the changing theologies. There is very little in it that can be tied to actual historical events and good reason to suspect that much of it is pure fiction.

Quote:Paul did perform miracles after Jesus ascended as did the other apostles. It was one of the reasons the early church spread and did not fade away after Jesus crucifixion.

You do realize that the "early church" had widely different views, many of which would be considered heretical by Christians today, right? You know that we do not know who wrote any of the gospels and that they can't be traced back earlier than decades after the supposed events? You do understand that the bible is a book with virtually no corroborating evidence and that using the bible to prove the bible is circular reasoning, right?

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