A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
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23-03-2016, 12:10 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 11:50 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:35 AM)ScottD Wrote:  

Okay.. zero of that says anything to do with having faith or "believe in christ." Yes jesus also is quoted as saying follow the commandments too. His words and his guidance leads that way. His saying he is the way doesn't say, your main goal is to believe in me. When people ask him how to get into heaven his answer isn't merely believe in me. It's not his principal message at all.

prophecy or foretelling before hand.. doesn't equal-have faith in jesus. Other authors saying things differently than what paul said doesn't equal, have faith in jesus is the base principle. Anyway you think you want to put it. That "base" comes directly and clearly from 1 person... and it's interestingly the literally only way he can proclaim any connection.

Quote:Do you know the story of the thief on the cross?
The thief didn't lead a good life. He was crucified next to Jesus, so safe to say he didn't.
Jesus assured him he would be in heaven after the Thief professed faith in him.
Luke 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
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23-03-2016, 12:15 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 11:50 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:35 AM)ScottD Wrote:  

Okay.. zero of that says anything to do with having faith or "believe in christ." Yes jesus also is quoted as saying follow the commandments too. His words and his guidance leads that way. His saying he is the way doesn't say, your main goal is to believe in me. When people ask him how to get into heaven his answer isn't merely believe in me. It's not his principal message at all.

prophecy or foretelling before hand.. doesn't equal-have faith in jesus. Other authors saying things differently than what paul said doesn't equal, have faith in jesus is the base principle. Anyway you think you want to put it. That "base" comes directly and clearly from 1 person... and it's interestingly the literally only way he can proclaim any connection.

Quote:The Bible as written over the course of 1500 years. Paul was not alone in proclaiming Christ as Savior
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23-03-2016, 12:19 PM (This post was last modified: 23-03-2016 12:46 PM by ClydeLee.)
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 12:10 PM)ScottD Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 11:50 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Okay.. zero of that says anything to do with having faith or "believe in christ." Yes jesus also is quoted as saying follow the commandments too. His words and his guidance leads that way. His saying he is the way doesn't say, your main goal is to believe in me. When people ask him how to get into heaven his answer isn't merely believe in me. It's not his principal message at all.

prophecy or foretelling before hand.. doesn't equal-have faith in jesus. Other authors saying things differently than what paul said doesn't equal, have faith in jesus is the base principle. Anyway you think you want to put it. That "base" comes directly and clearly from 1 person... and it's interestingly the literally only way he can proclaim any connection.

Quote:Do you know the story of the thief on the cross?
The thief didn't lead a good life. He was crucified next to Jesus, so safe to say he didn't.
Jesus assured him he would be in heaven after the Thief professed faith in him.
Luke 42 And he was saying, "Jesus, remember me when You come in Your kingdom!" 43And He said to him, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise."
While I've never heard it from you, but many others apologizing say the situation where Jesus says to the tax guy it'd be so hard to get into heaven and to do so would require giving away money and worldly possessions. They say, Jesus is just talking about THAT guy. Not everyone, though so you say when he talks to the man in the cross it means more than to just that thief.

So which one is supposed to be the right way? What Jesus said here to one person or what Jesus said here to one person? Or when Jesus said to the woman follow the comandments.. then listed some things that aren't in the commandments.

How does 1 get determined to be the base premise over the alternative? Especially since one presumably involves rules given directly from God.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-03-2016, 12:38 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 12:09 PM)unfogged Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 10:49 AM)ScottD Wrote:  A sect is a component of a religion.

With different beliefs than the other sects of the same religion. That's a problem.

Quote:The fact that you are "requiring" that I prove God's existence tells me you don't understand the most basic tenet of Christianity. Christianity is faith based, meaning there is no demonstrable evidence. No one has ever "proved" God's existence one way or the other. I don't have to support my claim. We're all presented with the same evidence and choices in life.

I'd say we're all presented with the same lack of evidence. That's one of the reasons for so many sects -- there is no way to determine who is correct and who is wrong.

Faith is the core problem here; it is not a virtue. Using faith you can believe anything since it does not require any evidence. That is not how I make decisions in any area of my life and, I would bet, not how you make decisions in any area except for your religious beliefs. If you are going to carve them out as separate from rational thought and evaluation and accept them on faith then we are at an impasse because that is as irrational as it gets from my perspective.

Quote:Faith is required because we lack virtue.
Life decisions are influenced by faith.
Faith is only the beginning. Faith brings understanding. Faith brings a changed heart. It's real, I've experienced it and I've seen it in others lives.
If someone you loved were dying, what would you tell them? To be a good person?
You've made good decisions for life, what about after? Time goes on much longer than life.



(23-03-2016 11:35 AM)ScottD Wrote:  Paul was only one author of the bible, there were 39. The old testament is filled with prophecy of Jesus coming.

Not according to the Jews.

Quote:The Jews are ..Jewish.

Quote:The new is filled with fulfillment of those prophecies.

The NT was written by people who knew the OT and who had a vested interest in making it sound like their hero was fulfilling prophecies. It was cobbled together over a period of hundreds of years by people with various agendas; stories were edited, added, and dropped according to the changing theologies. There is very little in it that can be tied to actual historical events and good reason to suspect that much of it is pure fiction.

Quote:Paul did perform miracles after Jesus ascended as did the other apostles. It was one of the reasons the early church spread and did not fade away after Jesus crucifixion.

You do realize that the "early church" had widely different views, many of which would be considered heretical by Christians today, right? You know that we do not know who wrote any of the gospels and that they can't be traced back earlier than decades after the supposed events? You do understand that the bible is a book with virtually no corroborating evidence and that using the bible to prove the bible is circular reasoning, right?
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23-03-2016, 12:41 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(22-03-2016 02:06 PM)ScottD Wrote:  Romans 3:22
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Hey! Whaddoyaknow, I can quote from a book too so it must be true!

[Image: 1388505620117470.jpg]

Shakespeare's Comedy of Errors.... on Donald J. Trump:

He is deformed, crooked, old, and sere,
Ill-fac’d, worse bodied, shapeless every where;
Vicious, ungentle, foolish, blunt, unkind,
Stigmatical in making, worse in mind.
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23-03-2016, 12:50 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 12:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 12:10 PM)ScottD Wrote:  
While I've never heard it from you, but many others apologizing say the situation where Jesus says to the tax guy it'd be so hard to get into heaven and to do so would require giving away possession and worldly possessions. They say, Jesus is just talking about THAT guy. Not everyone, though so you say when he talks to the man in the cross it means more than to just that thief.
Quote:The man asked Jesus how to be perfect, not get in to heaven.
Jesus response was to reveal the man's value of possessions over following him (Jesus knew his heart)
To be clear, we are commanded to follow him in every aspect of our lives. That includes not loving money and possessions. Following the commands does not get us to heaven. The Pharisees followed the commands, Jesus singled them out as being unsaved.

So which one is supposed to be the right way? What Jesus said here to one person or what Jesus said here to one person? Or when Jesus said to the woman follow the comandments.. then listed some things that aren't in the commandments.

How does 1 get determined to be the base premise over the alternative? Especially since one presumably involves rules given directly from God.
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23-03-2016, 01:00 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 12:50 PM)ScottD Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 12:19 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  While I've never heard it from you, but many others apologizing say the situation where Jesus says to the tax guy it'd be so hard to get into heaven and to do so would require giving away possession and worldly possessions. They say, Jesus is just talking about THAT guy. Not everyone, though so you say when he talks to the man in the cross it means more than to just that thief.

So which one is supposed to be the right way? What Jesus said here to one person or what Jesus said here to one person? Or when Jesus said to the woman follow the comandments.. then listed some things that aren't in the commandments.

How does 1 get determined to be the base premise over the alternative? Especially since one presumably involves rules given directly from God.

Jesus called out the pharisees for being Hypocrites and not following what they said to follow... He didn't say following the actual ideas was wrong, he directly said to people, he didn't come to abolish the law and to follow the commandments. He also told people not to pray in a way... they literally now pray every sunday in church. He said to pray privately and not make a display of it, yet somehow people don't care and use that in their public displays of religiosity weekly.

He called out people for being show offs and hypocrites... and that's just how most run of the mil christians still behave in spite of what he was clearly stating in that point and on the mount.

Jesus did say to follow the messiah only of any man. But that doesn't still equal at all any idea of the core of his christianity to being belief/faith in Christ.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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23-03-2016, 01:01 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 09:54 AM)ScottD Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 09:11 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  1. You invited yourself here.
2. No one's forcing you to stay.
3. Most of us, the "you folks" haven't said anything to you. This is the second thing I've said to you. The first was help with the quotes code.
4. You haven't been innocent and pristine, either.
5. Thanks for the sweeping generalization.
6. Goodbye.

(23-03-2016 09:03 AM)ScottD Wrote:  I responded to an insulting response, not allowed?.
My "sweeping generalization" is based on my experiences on atheist forums.
Almost invariably,

) Christians are insulted and ridiculed.
) Atheists seem very angry (you're angry and I wasn't even having a discussion with you)

Do you think this is true, or am I just generalizing?

But, you see, I'm not angry. You're assuming that because I don't agree that I'm angry. I bear no ill will nor any anger toward you. So, yes, you are generalizing.
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23-03-2016, 01:02 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 12:41 PM)dancefortwo Wrote:  
(22-03-2016 02:06 PM)ScottD Wrote:  Romans 3:22
For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

Hey! Whaddoyaknow, I can quote from a book too so it must be true!

Quote:That is my basis for my point of view. Not trying to prove it's true.
Let me know when you know in your heart it is true.

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23-03-2016, 01:14 PM
RE: A Question for Theists (and others) About Heaven
(23-03-2016 01:00 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  
(23-03-2016 12:50 PM)ScottD Wrote:  

Jesus called out the pharisees for being Hypocrites and not following what they said to follow... He didn't say following the actual ideas was wrong, he directly said to people, he didn't come to abolish the law and to follow the commandments. He also told people not to pray in a way... they literally now pray every sunday in church.

He said to pray privately and not make a display of it,

(23-03-2016 12:50 PM)ScottD Wrote:  This was directed at the Pharisees who were all about public recognition for their piety. It also means to say prayers because you mean it, not to convince others you are holy. Nothing wrong with praying in church, unless it is only to make yourself look good.

yet somehow people don't care and use that in their public displays of religiosity weekly.

He called out people for being show offs and hypocrites... and that's just how most run of the mil christians still behave in spite of what he was clearly stating in that point and on the mount.

Quote:That's very true. The bible clearly states that there will be many run of the mill Christians:

And someone said to Him, "Lord, are there just a few who are being saved?" And He said to them, 24"Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25"Once the head of the house gets up and shuts the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock on the door, saying, 'Lord, open up to us!' then He will answer and say to you, 'I do not know where you are from.'…

Jesus did say to follow the messiah only of any man. But that doesn't still equal at all any idea of the core of his christianity to being belief/faith in Christ.
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