A Question of Order
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12-11-2012, 04:12 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(12-11-2012 03:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-11-2012 03:26 PM)Egor Wrote:  Was there order before there were human beings to perceive it?
Yes. The order is not a product of our perception. Our perception mechanisms are the product of the order.

Meh ... don't think that's self-evident.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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12-11-2012, 04:24 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(12-11-2012 04:12 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-11-2012 03:49 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Yes. The order is not a product of our perception. Our perception mechanisms are the product of the order.

Meh ... don't think that's self-evident.
Brains and human sensory systems are dependent on the laws of Chemistry and Physics.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-11-2012, 04:43 PM
RE: A Question of Order
Egor Wrote:
Was there order before there were human beings to perceive it?

Yes.

Order is not always only about cosmology ... there are other things which point toward order right here on Earth. Fossil evidence would point toward order. Geological strata displays a particular kind of order.

The dinosaurs thought order was just grand... and they were around way before humans. Wink

A new type of thinking is essential if mankind is to survive and move to higher levels. ~ Albert Einstein
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12-11-2012, 05:25 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(12-11-2012 04:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-11-2012 04:12 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Meh ... don't think that's self-evident.
Brains and human sensory systems are dependent on the laws of Chemistry and Physics.

Of course, but that's not what I'm talking about. To use the example Erx brought up, if a tree falls in the forest and there are no ears to hear it, does it make a sound? No it does not because "sound" is as much a function of the receiver as the transmitter. Does it mean acoustic vibrations didn't occur? Of course not. Just that they weren't "sounds". That's all I'm saying.

(12-11-2012 04:43 PM)kim Wrote:  Egor Wrote:
Was there order before there were human beings to perceive it?

Yes.

Order is not always only about cosmology ... there are other things which point toward order right here on Earth. Fossil evidence would point toward order. Geological strata displays a particular kind of order.

The dinosaurs thought order was just grand... and they were around way before humans. Wink

Don't think the dinosaurs were capable of much "thought" at all.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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12-11-2012, 05:28 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(12-11-2012 05:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-11-2012 04:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Brains and human sensory systems are dependent on the laws of Chemistry and Physics.

Of course, but that's not what I'm talking about. To use the example Erx brought up, if a tree falls in the forest and there are no ears to hear it, does it make a sound? No it does not because "sound" is as much a function of the receiver as the transmitter. Does it mean acoustic vibrations didn't occur? Of course not. Just that they weren't "sounds". That's all I'm saying.

(12-11-2012 04:43 PM)kim Wrote:  Egor Wrote:
Was there order before there were human beings to perceive it?

Yes.

Order is not always only about cosmology ... there are other things which point toward order right here on Earth. Fossil evidence would point toward order. Geological strata displays a particular kind of order.

The dinosaurs thought order was just grand... and they were around way before humans. Wink

Don't think the dinosaurs were capable of much "thought" at all.


Oh, good. Fun with words. Drinking Beverage

Nothing to see (or hear) here, folks; move along.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-11-2012, 05:32 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(12-11-2012 05:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  
(12-11-2012 04:24 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Brains and human sensory systems are dependent on the laws of Chemistry and Physics.

Of course, but that's not what I'm talking about. To use the example Erx brought up, if a tree falls in the forest and there are no ears to hear it, does it make a sound? No it does not because "sound" is as much a function of the receiver as the transmitter. Does it mean acoustic vibrations didn't occur? Of course not. Just that they weren't "sounds". That's all I'm saying.

(12-11-2012 04:43 PM)kim Wrote:  Egor Wrote:
Was there order before there were human beings to perceive it?

Yes.

Order is not always only about cosmology ... there are other things which point toward order right here on Earth. Fossil evidence would point toward order. Geological strata displays a particular kind of order.

The dinosaurs thought order was just grand... and they were around way before humans. Wink

Don't think the dinosaurs were capable of much "thought" at all.
Ok. But the sound waves were propagated. They were not received, and interpreted. The waves are there, where there is a hearer or not. In the same way, the "order" was there. Just not interpreted or seen. The reality exists external to perception, and if there had been a recording device it would have detected, and recorded it, in both cases.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-11-2012, 05:34 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(12-11-2012 05:28 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(12-11-2012 05:25 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Of course, but that's not what I'm talking about. To use the example Erx brought up, if a tree falls in the forest and there are no ears to hear it, does it make a sound? No it does not because "sound" is as much a function of the receiver as the transmitter. Does it mean acoustic vibrations didn't occur? Of course not. Just that they weren't "sounds". That's all I'm saying.


Don't think the dinosaurs were capable of much "thought" at all.


Oh, good. Fun with words. Drinking Beverage

Nothing to see (or hear) here, folks; move along.

Smart move to go with Math as your Major, 'cause you'd've had no fuckin' prayer with Phil. Tongue

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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12-11-2012, 05:35 PM
RE: A Question of Order
Hey, Egor.

Soooooooo your response is to suggest that I'm a closet pedophile. That... that's what you bring? Wow. Just wow.

I was gonna swear just now, but I've decided not to.
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12-11-2012, 05:35 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(12-11-2012 04:57 AM)Egor Wrote:  A collegue at work posed this question: If there is no order in the universe, why doesn't the sun sometimes rise in the South. Huh
Stephen Hawking once said: "Why does the Universe go to all the bother of existing", a rather thought provoking comment in my view.
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12-11-2012, 05:43 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(12-11-2012 05:58 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(12-11-2012 05:56 AM)Egor Wrote:  What do you mean a "false premise"? It's a question.
But is there sufficient order for such to be seen as solely dependant on abiognesis?

The premise is : "if there is no order".
There IS order.
The premise is false.
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