A Question of Order
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13-11-2012, 04:14 PM
 
RE: A Question of Order
(13-11-2012 11:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I see the other shoe has dropped, just as I had expected.
It hardly stops anything in it's tracks. One should not project one's own ideas, assumptions and fears onto others.
Some are able to say "we don't have all the answers yet", and be comfortable with that.

Really? Well I call those people willfully ignorant. I call them stupid, and I call them dumbasses. Especially, when they tout that crap and then walk around like it's some kind of wisdom.

Quote:Positing THE answer is "god", which has been proven false so many times in the past,

Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed that. When did we prove God didn't create the order in the universe? Consider


Quote:We know from Chaos Theory, that "order" arises spontaneously, in this universe.

We know nothing of the sort. We know that virtual particles "appear" to form spontaneously. How the hell could order arise spontaneously? That doesn't even make sense? It's like true-sounding gibberish.

Quote:We also know from Relativity, Uncertainty, and the Math of Dirac, (spinors), that what our brains perceive or consider "logical" or "common sense" by *intuition*, is unreliable. Therefore the only rational position, is to take the one which requires evidence. The perceived (common sense) perception of cause/effect falls apart upon closer inspection for many reasons.

Why can't you just say there's order in the universe and you simply don't know whether or not there is an intelligent force behind its creation? Or at least just say you're an atheist because you fucking want to be an atheist and you really don't give a damn about mysteries or arguments to the contrary.

(13-11-2012 11:56 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If you think you understand the quantum, you don't understand the quantum. To clarify, is the quantum included in the above statement?

What? Hobo
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13-11-2012, 04:53 PM
RE: A Question of Order
Some are able to say "we don't have all the answers yet", and be comfortable with that.
Really? Well I call those people willfully ignorant. I call them stupid, and I call them dumbasses.

That was epic. Walgreens is open 24/7, by the way.

If Jesus died for our sins, why is there still sin? If man was created from dust, why is there still dust? If Americans came from Europe, why are there still Europeans?
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13-11-2012, 05:11 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(13-11-2012 04:14 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 11:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I see the other shoe has dropped, just as I had expected.
It hardly stops anything in it's tracks. One should not project one's own ideas, assumptions and fears onto others.
Some are able to say "we don't have all the answers yet", and be comfortable with that.

Really? Well I call those people willfully ignorant. I call them stupid, and I call them dumbasses. Especially, when they tout that crap and then walk around like it's some kind of wisdom.

Quote:Positing THE answer is "god", which has been proven false so many times in the past,

Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed that. When did we prove God didn't create the order in the universe? Consider


Quote:We know from Chaos Theory, that "order" arises spontaneously, in this universe.

We know nothing of the sort. We know that virtual particles "appear" to form spontaneously. How the hell could order arise spontaneously? That doesn't even make sense? It's like true-sounding gibberish.

Quote:We also know from Relativity, Uncertainty, and the Math of Dirac, (spinors), that what our brains perceive or consider "logical" or "common sense" by *intuition*, is unreliable. Therefore the only rational position, is to take the one which requires evidence. The perceived (common sense) perception of cause/effect falls apart upon closer inspection for many reasons.

Why can't you just say there's order in the universe and you simply don't know whether or not there is an intelligent force behind its creation? Or at least just say you're an atheist because you fucking want to be an atheist and you really don't give a damn about mysteries or arguments to the contrary.

(13-11-2012 11:56 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  If you think you understand the quantum, you don't understand the quantum. To clarify, is the quantum included in the above statement?

What? Hobo
There appears the need for a vivifying intelligent force, rather than a teeny ball of energy, to have to have made the universe of its own volition. I do not find the argument, that all that we perceive and experience, is a sort of structured chaos, appealing.
While the claim that nothing transcending current science is possible, or beyond its current parameters, is popular by many, the possibility of forces,laws and systems transcending both science and religion is no way impossible.

The issue of how any non caused, or 'differently causes' phenomena may be fully or partly responsible for our genesis is by no means clear cut, nor is the situation remedied by a rigid scientism.
A non caused first cause, which does sound odd,would also have immense ramifications upon any nascent moral system leading to possible higher dimensions of reality. There would be also the question as to whether higher beings were justified in experimenting, sometimes with intense suffering, onthe creatures involved, in order to facilitate higher things.
The issue of higher intelligence would not automatically produce higher ethics as is generally posited by all religions.

Our alternative, Big Bang, 14 billion years of evolution, survival of the fitness,needs based growth(for no really sound reason) and a morality geared to enculturizitation (memes) along with some sort of liveable chaos is not all that terribly appealing, especially as sole cause.
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13-11-2012, 05:16 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(13-11-2012 05:11 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  Our alternative, Big Bang, 14 billion years of evolution, survival of the fitness,needs based growth(for no really sound reason) and a morality geared to enculturizitation (memes) along with some sort of liveable chaos is not all that terribly appealing, especially as sole cause.

But that's what we've got. The universe doesn't actually care what you (or I) finds appealing.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-11-2012, 06:19 PM
 
RE: A Question of Order
(13-11-2012 05:11 PM)Mr Woof Wrote:  While the claim that nothing transcending current science is possible, or beyond its current parameters, is popular by many, the possibility of forces,laws and systems transcending both science and religion is no way impossible.

I think that is very well said, very well said. And I fully understand that you are in no way saying "God exists." Still, I think you have made a profound statement, a well-thought-out statement. Kudos. Thumbsup
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13-11-2012, 06:26 PM
 
RE: A Question of Order
(13-11-2012 05:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  But that's what we've got. The universe doesn't actually care what you (or I) finds appealing.

How do you know what we've got and what we haven't got? And what are you, now, the head-idiot-in-charge? You know what the universe cares about and what it doesn't care about? You speak for the universe? Look, don't go away mad...just go away.



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13-11-2012, 06:31 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(13-11-2012 06:26 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 05:16 PM)Chas Wrote:  But that's what we've got. The universe doesn't actually care what you (or I) finds appealing.

How do you know what we've got and what we haven't got? And what are you, now, the head-idiot-in-charge? You know what the universe cares about and what it doesn't care about? You speak for the universe? Look, don't go away mad...just go away.



Show me any evidence that the universe cares.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-11-2012, 06:54 PM
RE: A Question of Order
If one thinks a "cause' is necessary, it's only just "proximate" cause. We cannot assume that whatever the "cause was", (if one posits that), that it's either "personal" or ultimate, An omnipotent deity could have created other, lesser, and even machine deities, with the power to create universes. First Cause is no answer to anything, even in the theists world.

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13-11-2012, 07:26 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(13-11-2012 04:14 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(13-11-2012 11:32 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  I see the other shoe has dropped, just as I had expected.
It hardly stops anything in it's tracks. One should not project one's own ideas, assumptions and fears onto others.
Some are able to say "we don't have all the answers yet", and be comfortable with that.

Really? Well I call those people willfully ignorant. I call them stupid, and I call them dumbasses. Especially, when they tout that crap and then walk around like it's some kind of wisdom.


And I would call you a sloppy-minded idiotic sod, oink oink. Willful ignorance is refusing to investigate a subject in favor of keeping your current "answer", whether it's true or not. Saying, "I don't know, let's find out" is the exact opposite of willful ignorance. Often the "let's find out" is left off for brevity, and because a great deal of the "let's find out" is entrusted to people who have the time, talent, training, and resources to carry out the research while people who post on forums wait on their answers and do other things like make money or have sex.

But you already knew that. You just willfully ignored that information so you could make a cheap crack. Drinking Beverage




Moving on, I would argue that you're setting up a false dichotomy of "order" vs. "chaos". I challenge you to define chaos in terms other than "the absence of order", because at present we have no idea what that would look like. Everywhere we look, from subatomic particle interactions; to molecules in a crystal lattice; to molecules following brownian motion in a cup of coffee; to birds flying in formation; to thermonuclear explosions; to global weather patterns; to the orbits of planets; to the formation of galaxies! EVERYWHERE we look, we find order, and NOWHERE do we look and find the absence of order. I guarantee you, try to find an example of chaos, of total disorder, and I can point out an order that it follows. Chaos, as the total lack of order, is not a thing that exists, so your argument is basically bullshit because you can't have a real comparison between something that is ubiquitous, and something which does not exist and does not even have evidence for it.

You're just setting up another false dichotomy to make yourself feel good and to bolster your self-delusion. It's just wanking, and it's rude to do that in public.

E 2 = (mc 2)2 + (pc )2
614C → 714N + e + ̅νe
2 K(s) + 2 H2O(l) → 2 KOH(aq) + H2 (g) + 196 kJ/mol
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13-11-2012, 07:38 PM
RE: A Question of Order
(13-11-2012 04:14 PM)Egor Wrote:  
Quote:Positing THE answer is "god", which has been proven false so many times in the past,

Oh, I'm sorry. I must have missed that. When did we prove God didn't create the order in the universe? Consider
We didn't. We also didn't have to. It's an argument from ignorance, a fallacy in which you try to answer an unanswered (or unanswerable) question by just guessing. If I find that one of my shoes is missing, simply answering the question of "where is my missing shoe?" with "a goblin stole it" is an argument from ignorance, because I'm guessing at the answer to a question that I can't answer.

If you want us to believe that God created order in the universe, you have to present evidence other than "for lack of an answer, it's my personal guess".

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