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03-04-2012, 11:15 AM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 03:04 AM)Logisch Wrote:  Why wouldn't I want to see people survive?

I think that's sort of a silly thing to say.

I’ll bet you do.

Quote: I think if someone's only reason to live is because they think their only and ultimate meaning to life is because there's an afterlife to enjoy, then the only thing perhaps from keeping them from wishing all of humanity dead is simply because if they live happily in this life that there is some sort of ultimate reward for "putting up with it" now... I think that's sad. Realistically, I've met people that think like that, and I think it's unfortunate that it's the only way they give their life cause.

I think this life is training for the next. So what? My question is why you think we should exist, because you don’t believe in “the next life.”

Quote:Because, I get one shot at living on this rock we called earth, so why not make the best of it? Why not enjoy seeing my family enjoying life? We're a curious race. Curiosity is never ending with us. Because I'd love to see us become a space faring species. Because I would like to see a time when people can live together and enjoy each others company and be peaceful. Because I have so many questions without answers and I enjoy looking for the answers and I want to help others find those answers. It'll make us smarter, better, stronger as a species.

The question is, “Why do you want the human race to survive. Your answer is so that it can survive better. And you think my reason is sad?

Quote:I think it is important to give myself a cause, to find a cause, to help others, to be accountable to others, life is amazing, the facts of life are amazing and the universe. Why wouldn't I want to see others enjoy that? I see no reason not to enjoy it and allow others to enjoy it.

I wonder if I’ll ever get another response other than, “I want the human race to survive so that it can keep surviving.”

Quote: If there is no god (and I don't think there is one) then I think it's all the more reason for humanity to understand life better, help each other and find hope in humanity and find their own purpose.... I think it's all the more reason for people to be proud of the fact that they ARE good without god, they CAN be good without god, they CAN be respectful without god... not because of a god, but because we're human, and we want the best for one another. Explore it, enjoy it, research and develop it, branch out and expand and really find out what we are truly capable of..... not blow it up. Why would you want to do such a thing?

Make our own reason for existing? You realize that’s not possible. Either an external reason exists, or it doesn’t.

Quote:Someday... I will die. The likelihood that someone will remember me is likely, at least for a few years. My close relatives will remember me and hopefully my memories and what made them happy.

100 years from then the likelihood that someone will remember me is unlikely. Or at least maybe a story or two passed down in the family, maybe some contributions.

200 years from now, someone in my family will likely only learn of me through genealogy or some sort of family record. Family will progress. People will move on. They will seek their own answers to life and things will go on. My life at that point is only what I've made it for those to enjoy and learn from my own mistakes and lessons and things passed down.

So I see no point in seeking mass fame, it's irrelevant to me. I will enjoy what I can, try to help others, help my family enjoy what they can. I love them dearly, they mean the world to me. I don't need a god to tell me that. If we haven't blown each other up from someone with their finger on a red button who thinks humanity doesn't deserve to live because of some radical religious movement that causes world war 3, then hopefully, at some point, my future generations in my family will enjoy a modern society where mankind has a purpose because it gave itself a purpose, not because it feels like it needs one from something in the sky that was created by man in primitive times of survival to cope with things they could not explain.
Nice preaching, but you still haven’t given a reason why humanity should exist other than to just keep existing. What? That one day we will give ourselves a reason to exist? How is that even logically possible?
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03-04-2012, 11:20 AM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 09:32 AM)KVron Wrote:  Although I won't be there to see it, I'd like my grand grand grand grandsons to achieve something like travel to another planets or galaxies and
even start new live there... who knows? Maybe in two hundred years we as humans will be able to do that and more and I'd like my genes to be

That's my answer.
Mmhhhh I've just realized that betrayed by my own subconscious, I (my genes) want to live in heaven after all Big Grin

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03-04-2012, 11:20 AM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 11:15 AM)Egor Wrote:  Make our own reason for existing? You realize that’s not possible.

What!? Seems to me that is exactly what Veridican is.

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03-04-2012, 11:31 AM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2012 11:35 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: A Question
I've discussed this before in another thread with a depressing undertone. Sadly you're being attacked because your assertion is that the best answer is to end everything. I agree with King that this is indeed an attack based solely on the questioner, though your later response really didn't help much. I'll agree that you phrased it in an odd way, and that you'll continue to make it seem like an attack on those who view life differently than you, but I'll answer your question.

Life exists and life changes, what makes these changes? Is it the radical mutation that occurs once in a while or is it the steady alterations happening over time? Did Lincoln free the slaves or had the people who saw the slaves as more succeeded in culminating with his action? We may not be remembered, but the actions of each person are just as valid as those of the most well known. We are all responsible in shaping the cultural understandings of our surrounding communities.

In the absurdity thread peterkin brought up soup kitchens. There are many things about life that seem completely meaningless, but at the same time can you truly tell yourself they shouldn't still be done? What would the world be like if no one worked at soup kitchens? How would things change? Humanity is a group not an individual, but that in no way lessens the impact of each individual. While we may be but specks in the universe we still matter. The same as all those smaller life forms that make us up. Their lives too have a great impact. The desperate struggle of life is what makes it so beautiful this will to continue and flourish.

Growing up I was surrounded by this view that life without god is meaningless, not only that but I did not have god. I saw your argument as fact for a while, but eventually I lead myself to a realization. Meaning is not the right term but still it can work. My parents reason for going through all the things they've done has lead to me and I'm an off-shoot of their reasons along with my own. This system has been going on for longer than I truly can imagine. While there might not be something beyond there is definitely a sort of continual vision. Things moving forward ideas being passed along and changed. Sometimes good, sometimes horrible. I've seen amazing things in this life along with the horrid ones, and all of this random interpretation and guess work has led to it. Whatever life is, it's a lot more amazing than a simple word can desribe. More amazing than I can even understand. Mere glimpses are all that I will experience within my entire life. Most of these glimpses will be horrid, but some will challenge any negative impressions I can possibly have about the world.

You can argue that this enormity would suggest your belief system, but I've seen the framework of your beliefs and I disagree. I not only disagree, I can comprehend your framework. The universe is at an entirely different scale than some book. There's a reason so many different observations have been made by those who spend their time staring into the night sky. My signature at the bottom of my posts is completely true, while I do not agree with your belief at all I am willing to change. I just have come to my understanding through a very difficult life filled with a lot of inner dialogue. What I do know are things that I've observed and gained a grasp on.

I know one thing truly about your beliefs, that one thing is that you are not as certain as you proclaim yourself to be. I rarely discuss my own views on things because I feel it's wrong to impose a guess on others. The true reason for my dissatisfaction towards religion is that there has yet to be an acceptable answer. Yet so many are so certain that they know some immeasurable truth.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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03-04-2012, 11:42 AM
RE: A Question
My question wasn't answered. I feel slighted.

Maybe I should have been meaner. Poopy face.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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03-04-2012, 11:42 AM
RE: A Question
How about this Egor. We are animals just like any other and are DNA coded with a will to survive. And to do what is necessary for future generations to survive. Just because we are smart enough to ponder this doesn't remove us from the tree of life.

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03-04-2012, 11:55 AM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 03:04 AM)Eternal Wrote:  So what you are actually saying here is without god you see no reason to live.

There isn’t. That’s just a fact. Live we might, but there’s not reason if there’s no God.

Quote:Why would an atheist want to die knowing it is the end? Surely christians with their eternal paradise waiting would be far more likely to want that.

Yeah, I’m not a Christian, but I want my life to end. I want to do what I came here to do, finish it successfully, and go on to the next phase of life in the Kingdom of Heaven which is a greater existence than this one. The reason I want humanity to survive is because God wants humanity to survive so he can make more creatures.

Quote:Why call life an indignity?

It’s only an indignity if there is no God. If there is no God, then there is no reason to exist. If there is no reason to exist, then there is no reason for pain and suffering and death. To endure pain and suffering and death for no reason, is undignified and should be ended.

But I believe in God, so that’s not an issue for me.

Quote: and why presume we would? Just because someone resists being indoctrinated into some magical fairy cult doesn't mean that they do not hold other beliefs or aspirations of their own. The main difference is that they are usually based on observable reality and rational thinking, not illogic and superstition. Good to see that your cuntiness has not subsided any.

If there is no God, there is no reason for me to tolerate your insults. Your insults are just more reason why life is undignified. Your verbal assault proves that a world without God should be ended.

(03-04-2012 03:08 AM)ClydeLee Wrote:  That sounds like a cynical worldview of humans.. or life in general. Life itself is a remarkable thing; since this is the only life we know of in the universe to date, it is pretty special.

Okay, stop. I’d like to challenge that. It’s something all atheists say, and I’m sure it comes from Richard Dawkins or Sam Harris, or the late Christopher Hitchens (who spent his meaningful life as a skeptic and alcoholic). What makes life “special”? What makes it a remarkable thing? Special compared to what? Remarkable compared to what? If there is no God, it’s better to be unconscious. It’s better to be a rock. If there is no God, there is no reason to be conscious. Hitchens proved that every time he gave an interview with a glass full of booze in his hand.

In fact, your whole paragraph there sounds like a deluded kind of cult-positivity. “We all give up our possessions and wives to David because he’s special!” It doesn’t sound reasonable; in fact, it sounds kind of creepy.

(03-04-2012 03:16 AM)Smooshmonster Wrote:  Humanity's desire to survive is independent of our beliefs or cultural heritage. All animals have the desire to keep on living. A wolf doesn't believe in god, but it will fight tooth and nail for its own survival, and that of its pack. To say that without faith there is no survival instinct has no foundation. If you have any reason at all to believe it does, then please do share.

Read my post. I never said “without faith there is no survival instinct.” Of course there is a survival instinct. So, I take it that’s it? Well, that explains why you don’t want to die off, but what about the rest of humanity? Why would you want them to survive? Why can’t you just be atheistically honest and say you don’t give a damn what happens to the universe after you are dead?

Quote: If anything, atheists have more reason not to blow themselves up. There is nothing else.

Hence, the indignity of life from the atheist point of view: living only out of fear of dying.

(03-04-2012 07:00 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  Too bad Egor you fail with the very basic premise of your thread. There is much to live for on this earth without a fairy tale and an empty promise of an afterlife:
nature's beauty in my backyard, the national park, in the ocean in the universe
laughing and playing with my children
That will end.
time with my wife
the sense of accomplishment I gain from my work
a good meal
my awe for our scientific accomplishments and hope that I can witness even more
spending time with my dogs
a couple of beers and hotwings with my friends
a morning spent fishing on a calm lake as the sun comes up [/quote]

Things I don't enjoy:
fatuous theists and their smug self proclaimed moral superiority
stupid people (i guess i am redundant there)
my nation's current political climate[/quote]

All of that is self-centered. I fully understand that an atheist will want to maximize pleasure, minimize pain, and continue to be conscious for as long as possible. My question was why should humanity survive? For that, you have provided no answer whatsoever, because face it: there is no coherent atheistic response to that question.

(03-04-2012 07:53 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  All right, I'm not one to usually white knight... but seriously... he asked a legitimate question. It seems some of you are getting riled up just because it's Egor. Stop trying to incite inflamed responses and just answer the question.

Thanks, KC, but they can’t answer the question. In truth, I guess it was kind of a trick question to illustrate the fact that there is no atheistic reason for humanity to exist.

Quote:The question isn't insulting or insensitive. It's just a question based on a conclusion from the empirical data of a system of belief. He wants to know why the empirical data is wrong and why you feel that way.

I mean, I've been asked this exact question numerous times... by many of you.

"If you believe you're going to heaven, why don't you just kill yourself and your family?"

That question is just as "offensive" as what Egor asked. What's the difference?

My time here has revealed that many of you can dish it out but can't take it.

OMG, of course they can dish it out and not take it. All of atheism is that way. It is at its core an anti-human response to life. It is a reaction and nothing more. It seeks to grab possession of the universe from God but the result is that without God it doesn’t matter what we possess.

(03-04-2012 09:32 AM)KVron Wrote:  Ok,

1st: I don't agree with calling life "indignity".

Quote:Now, to your question:

Although I won't be there to see it, I'd like my grand grand grand grandsons to achieve something like travel to another planets or galaxies and
even start new live there... who knows? Maybe in two hundred years we as humans will be able to do that and more and I'd like my genes to be
That's my answer.
You’d like your genes to be there?
Okay. It’s not sexy, but it’s an answer. I’ll give you that. It is an answer to the question. It’s tantamount to saying, “When I die, I want my arm removed. I want it kept on ice until we travel to our nearest star and I want it placed on the first planet we colonize. That’s why I want humanity to continue existing. Someone has to transport my arm to that planet. Thank you, and good night.”

(03-04-2012 11:10 AM)ALovelyChickenMan Wrote:  No.

Life is a wonderful thing and I see no reason to end it because there's nothing after it. If anything, I have more reason to live this life the best I can.

Yes. You do, but that wasn’t the question. We all, individually, can think of a reason to live: we enjoy life and we’re afraid of death. But that’s no reason to give a shit whether the rest of humanity survives after we’re gone.
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03-04-2012, 11:58 AM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 02:46 AM)Egor Wrote:  I should be writing chapter two in my most current book about how to believe in God, but a question just popped into my head and I had to rush over here and ask it: As atheists, why do you want the human race to survive?

It would seem to me that if there is no God, we might as well detonate all the thermonuclear bombs and bring this indignity called "life" to an end.

Don’t you agree? I'm not trying to start a fight here. I honestly want to know what you think.
I've never really thought about it.

Instinct I suppose plays a part. Also empathy with the rest of humanity.

What are your views?

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Ferdinand: Everyone from British is so, like, fucking retarded.
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03-04-2012, 12:18 PM
RE: A Question
Answer my question please instead of just assuming you've made some kind of arbitrary point.

You're like one of those evil evolutionist scientists that only try to prove what they believe and disregard all other data.

If you can tell me why heaven gives meaning to life then please do.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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03-04-2012, 01:06 PM
RE: A Question
Because i like living, and in general i like my species, of course there are some exceptions.

This universe and life has so many amazing things, So why would i want to kill myself and everyone else?

Here's a question, if this life is so bad and the next life is so good why do you want to continue to live when heaven is so much better? wouldn't dieing get you to your god faster?

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