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03-04-2012, 01:22 PM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 06:07 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 06:00 AM)Thomas Wrote:  Read Camus on his argument for-against suicide and you'll have your answer.

I might hafta do that, but reading philosophy is slow going for this cat. I'm still on page fifty something of my book of Kant. Tongue
Camus is a novelist, not a philospher. He writes much better. Kant is tough going, unless you're reading him in German and that's your native language?

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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03-04-2012, 01:26 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2012 03:17 PM by Stevil.)
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 10:59 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 03:00 AM)Stevil Wrote:  Is that what you would do Egor, would you want to destroy the earth and all the life that lives off the earth?

If you didn't have access to the launch button, would you kill yourself instead?

Would the Veridican become yet another suicide cult?


It seems to me that you don't enjoy your life here. Do you find your life an indignity?
What are you talking about? I’m not an atheist. I have very clearly defined reasons for existing and for the human race to exist. I’m asking you why you think we should exist. And as I thought: no answer, just attack the questioner.
Your question was vague. Sometimes it is best to try and get the questioner to think for themselves rather than simply give them answers.

Yes, you are a theist. But you are stating that without god, you would want to kill all life on earth.
I can't relate to you at all on this, so can't answer your question for you. I am trying to find out your reasoning behind this statement.

You also asserted that life is an indignity. It seems to me that life is a mirror.
If you treat others with indignity then that is how they will treat you.

I can certainly see from your presence on this forum that you have been treating people with indignity and hence you have to face the indignity of having a thread dedicated to people wanting you expelled from this community.
Quote:
Quote:Sometimes I do think the earth would be more beautiful without the human race polluting it and controlling all the animal life.
Yes, now there's an answer. That's exactly what atheism is really all about, isn't it?
And yet, Egor wants to kill all life on earth, if his precious god doesn't exist.
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03-04-2012, 01:32 PM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 02:46 AM)Egor Wrote:  I should be writing chapter two in my most current book about how to believe in God, but a question just popped into my head and I had to rush over here and ask it: As atheists, why do you want the human race to survive?

It would seem to me that if there is no God, we might as well detonate all the thermonuclear bombs and bring this indignity called "life" to an end.

Don’t you agree? I'm not trying to start a fight here. I honestly want to know what you think.
Sounds more like an addict so immersed into his drug that he knows nothing about a reality beyond it. I was this way, when I was drinking. The world, to me consisted of myself and the bottle.

Life is more than a devotion to a cause. Weather it be Ideology or Religion. Once you taste true freedom, you lap it up like a thirsty man with a long lost glass of pure water.

I'm sorry you are how you are, but I'd like to ask you something. Have you ever tested what the world would be without your images of God? It might benefit you greatly to test the waters, so that you will have experience in what you ask, instead of assuming so much.
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03-04-2012, 01:47 PM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 02:46 AM)Egor Wrote:  As atheists, why do you want the human race to survive?

It would seem to me that if there is no God, we might as well detonate all the thermonuclear bombs and bring this indignity called "life" to an end.

If you want a serious answer I'll take a shot at it.
First, why would I want the human race to survive? For purely selfish reasons. I want my offspring to have happy and long lives. I want them to experience living. As far as all of humanity, we are a highly evolved species capabile of understanding our own existence. The very fact that you can ask the question if we should care about our future existence is proof enough that we should care to exist. All life is worthy of existence, from the lowest forms to us.
Second, the easier question: Why not blow up the planet? Simply put, I have no right to. It is not up to me to decide if others live or die. As opposed to a religious point of view where make-believe beings decide the fate of humanity, we decide collectively on our future. Often we only see the problems with human existence, but the value system we use is based on our inability to think outside of our own experiences. No other animal on this planet considers mass suicide as a solution to its social problems, making the question itself meaningless.

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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03-04-2012, 03:28 PM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 01:22 PM)Thomas Wrote:  Camus is a novelist, not a philospher. He writes much better. Kant is tough going, unless you're reading him in German and that's your native language?

D'oh! And no. Wink

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03-04-2012, 06:08 PM
 
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 11:12 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Why do I want the human race to continue living?

Who said I did? Not as it stands now I don't.
Fair enough.

Quote:We don't deserve the lives we have for the most part. We take it too much for granted and my guess is a lot of that has to do with the implications given to life from religion. That it is merely a testing point.

As an atheist, how do you make that judgment? To what standard do you compare it to?

Quote:Still I'd like for us to overcome our differences, and our hatred for one another and move on. Together in a world of harmony. Where we appreciate the lives we have and the short time we have to enjoy it.

Not possible. If life is not eternal, then the loss of it is too great to bear. If there is no eternal life, we have evolved into torture.

Quote:If we could restrain ourselves from greed and corruption, hatred and ignorance, we could literally solve a lot of problems we face. A lot of the problems that make unhappiness. Like world hunger. Easy Peesy.

If atheism is true, why stop hunger? Seriously. Why do anything? Why progress or fall back? Why survive or die? Why do anything at all? Why help anyone unless you can use them for some reason. Why be good? If atheism is true, hedonism is the only morality that is rational.

Quote:Why continue living at all? Good question really. Not one that can be answered completely. For everyone its different. For me I'm selfish and really enjoy all that the world has to offer. I want to see it. Feel it. More than that, I've got a wonderful little girl that I want to watch become a wonderful woman. I want to see who she becomes.

As I’ve said, I understand the individual wanting to survive. I’m talking about why would the individual care if humanity survived, if atheism is true.

Quote:Now answer my questions as best you can please.

Why live forever in heaven? And what purpose is there to that?

In the kingdom of heaven, we will have greater ability to control and create. We will be like Jesus was here on earth. It will be like a lucid dream. But even that is only a stepping stone, a training ground, along the way to a complete union with God (the Kingdom of God). God makes a line in his consciousness when He creates us. Eventually, we will grow up and remove that line. And this is how God receives glory, and this is the whole reason we were created.


Quote:I hear that god gives life purpose, or heaven does. That life on Earth is where we are judged. But I never understand how eternal life doing anything somehow gives life more meaning than it had before. Seems like the same thing but longer.

Long before you ever get what you want, what you really want, you will have given up being who you are. The ego separation from God is only temporary, like the shell around a seed. All you want is to be one with God, even if you don’t realize it. It’s that constant craving, like in the song by KD Lang.

I have to start stretching now for taekwondo, but I didn’t want to leave your post unanswered. These things, someday, I would like to talk about in greater depth with someone. It gives me great joy to talk about these things. But there are few who want to talk about them. It seems either people don’t believe, or they consider you a heretic. Oh well.
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03-04-2012, 06:32 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2012 06:38 PM by Glaucus.)
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 02:46 AM)Egor Wrote:  As atheists, why do you want the human race to survive?

As Carl Sagan once said, "we are a way for the cosmos to know itself." As far as we know, we're the only species that has developed sentience and it should be viewed as an honor to be able to investigate the cosmos from which ourselves and all other forms of life and matter have come from. I guess I don't understand why you would feel like we should simply give that up and destroy it because a deity isn't behind it all. Why do you call it an indignity?

As humans, we're lucky to be able to do more than just survive life, like most other species, we can attempt to understand and improve life.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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03-04-2012, 06:37 PM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 02:46 AM)Egor Wrote:  I should be writing chapter two in my most current book about how to believe in God, but a question just popped into my head and I had to rush over here and ask it: As atheists, why do you want the human race to survive?

It would seem to me that if there is no God, we might as well detonate all the thermonuclear bombs and bring this indignity called "life" to an end.

Don’t you agree? I'm not trying to start a fight here. I honestly want to know what you think.

[Image: 1307032252_atomic_bomb_mushroom_cloud_explosion.gif]
*cough* emo *cough*
No seriously why should we do that can't you enjoy life? >.<
Man you are greedy since you want a reward to live? That's like saying I will only eat if you give me gold with it.

A rebellious atheist since nineteen ninety five.

I killed your god and replaced it with myself! So bow before my supremacy my sheeps.
If you think about it you will see what sheep means Wink
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03-04-2012, 06:44 PM
RE: A Question
Thanks for sort of answering my questions.
I didn't expect much more, as every time I ask a theist those questions I get pretty dodgy answers. Not to say you don't believe what you say, just that I don't think it applies.

What I actually asked was what about heaven is the part that gives it meaning. I don't mean what happens, I mean what's the point. Sure more stuff happens, you meld with god vulcan style or something, but where's the point? The purpose. The greater thing. The end game so to speak. Every book has an ending. Every book has a plot line, and a point. What is the end game, the purpose, the reason?
What makes going to heaven more purposeful than not going to heaven?

Quote:


As an atheist, how do you make that judgment? To what standard do you compare it to?
Good question. I'd have to say my own. I feel the same way about people who don't take care of their things. If I see someone who treats their guitar like crap it infuriates me. If you dont take care of it then you don't appreciate it. Most people don't take care of themselves, or other people they know. Even I don't. Hell I used to be fit, now Im not fat but I'm not fit. I like pie is all.
It boils down to the same thing as where do my morals come from. To me my morals come from an empathic stand point. I don't go round killing people simply because I don't want to be killed. I don't rape people because I wouldn't want to be raped. It would suck. I don't steal from people because I hate being stolen from. I live my life and enjoy it because it is so rare and deserves to be enjoyed. Not because I'm told to. But because i want to.
I see a to of people who don't seem to get it. They seem to live for the wrong reasons. But I could be wrong.

I don't get the torture bit, so I'll leave it for now.

And I think I answered the next question as to why stop anything already. If not shout it out.

I don't really know why as a species we would strive to survive except because we all have individual reasons and it forms a sort of group reasoning in itself. Honestly I doubt that as a species we want human survival. I think right now it is more of a case by case basis. Group related. This religious group over that one, this country over that one, this race over that one. It's all a bunch of groups trying to kill the other ones. Humans are never satisfied with the amount of spilled blood. There can always be more.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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03-04-2012, 06:48 PM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 06:08 PM)Egor Wrote:  Not possible. If life is not eternal, then the loss of it is too great to bear. If there is no eternal life, we have evolved into torture.


If atheism is true, why stop hunger? Seriously. Why do anything? Why progress or fall back? Why survive or die? Why do anything at all? Why help anyone unless you can use them for some reason. Why be good? If atheism is true, hedonism is the only morality that is rational.
Do you have any concept of empathy Egor? All of your posts and takes on this topic make it seem as if you don't. Animals have developed emotions and understanding through empathic feelings that drive the idea to continue reproduction. You have a cynical world view that if you had no redemption from afterlife that makes everything absurd. It does, but that doesn't mean you don't make your own world out of it. You've build up your own religious view on your own merits and that is the achievement human ingenuity.

I'm actually on the side of being a little saddened so many of the posts are personal based; They're in the desire to see their progeny survive. There is nothing wrong with that thinking, but all human life is remarkable for it's potential rarity and evolved level of conscience intelligence. With our intelligence, we can see that our type of life has vast potential to grow and explore new wonders in the universe which makes it worth preserving. That's a rational stance.
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