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03-04-2012, 07:09 PM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 01:47 PM)Thomas Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 02:46 AM)Egor Wrote:  As atheists, why do you want the human race to survive?

It would seem to me that if there is no God, we might as well detonate all the thermonuclear bombs and bring this indignity called "life" to an end.

If you want a serious answer I'll take a shot at it.
First, why would I want the human race to survive? For purely selfish reasons. I want my offspring to have happy and long lives. I want them to experience living. As far as all of humanity, we are a highly evolved species capabile of understanding our own existence. The very fact that you can ask the question if we should care about our future existence is proof enough that we should care to exist. All life is worthy of existence, from the lowest forms to us.
Second, the easier question: Why not blow up the planet? Simply put, I have no right to. It is not up to me to decide if others live or die. As opposed to a religious point of view where make-believe beings decide the fate of humanity, we decide collectively on our future. Often we only see the problems with human existence, but the value system we use is based on our inability to think outside of our own experiences. No other animal on this planet considers mass suicide as a solution to its social problems, making the question itself meaningless.
Pretty much this.
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03-04-2012, 08:48 PM (This post was last modified: 03-04-2012 08:55 PM by Starcrash.)
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 02:46 AM)Egor Wrote:  It would seem to me that if there is no God, we might as well detonate all the thermonuclear bombs and bring this indignity called "life" to an end.
My Christian family makes the same mistake of equating atheism and existential nihilism, so I understand where you're coming from, but you're still wrong.

We live for the same things you do... family, friends, love and romance, fun, challenges and goals. Besides --- even most people who claim they "have nothing to live for" don't kill themselves because they still have a survival instinct, even while being atheist.

I have, in response to this, made the same claim about theists: why bother to continue living if the world beyond this one is so much better? But I already know the answer, because even though you claim that your beliefs are central, you also share these values and survival instinct.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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03-04-2012, 09:06 PM
RE: A Question
Based on Egor's previous reply it seems his mind is already made up on why Atheists value life. Why ask the question if you aren't going to accept the answer?

You ask the question and then immediately dismiss any answers and start attacking strawmen. Sounds like you already got your chapter written. Book closed. You aren't seeking understanding, instead you seek to confirm your current point of view.

“Forget Jesus, the stars died so you could be born.” - Lawrence M. Krauss
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03-04-2012, 09:35 PM
RE: A Question
There has been much suffering and a little joy in the human world since we became vaguely aware of our being.

As living creatures, some 10,000 years past early religious thought, we have developed most indifferently.
We seek both knowledge for ourselves and future generations; in other words some of us are hopefully creative.

It seems smart to be kindly proactive in accordance with our abilities, neither fearing an eternal roasting, nor hoping for squillions of years post mortem with God.
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03-04-2012, 10:04 PM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 06:48 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'm actually on the side of being a little saddened so many of the posts are personal based; They're in the desire to see their progeny survive. There is nothing wrong with that thinking, but all human life is remarkable for it's potential rarity and evolved level of conscience intelligence. With our intelligence, we can see that our type of life has vast potential to grow and explore new wonders in the universe which makes it worth preserving. That's a rational stance.
We are all entitled to personal opinions, so I am not saying that you are wrong, but....

I personally don't see humanity as anything special. I feel it is very likely that there are millions of types of intelligent beings in our Galaxy, let alone our Universe or other universes that there might be. I don't see any cosmic purpose for life to be intelligent or to wonder at the universe. It certainly is not my purpose to preserve such intelligent life.

My rational stance is that if humanity is polluting and destroying the earth for all life, then possibly the Earth is better off without us. However I am not going to suggest that we make it our mission to rid the earth of humans.
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03-04-2012, 10:22 PM
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 10:04 PM)Stevil Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 06:48 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I'm actually on the side of being a little saddened so many of the posts are personal based; They're in the desire to see their progeny survive. There is nothing wrong with that thinking, but all human life is remarkable for it's potential rarity and evolved level of conscience intelligence. With our intelligence, we can see that our type of life has vast potential to grow and explore new wonders in the universe which makes it worth preserving. That's a rational stance.
We are all entitled to personal opinions, so I am not saying that you are wrong, but....

I personally don't see humanity as anything special. I feel it is very likely that there are millions of types of intelligent beings in our Galaxy, let alone our Universe or other universes that there might be. I don't see any cosmic purpose for life to be intelligent or to wonder at the universe. It certainly is not my purpose to preserve such intelligent life.

My rational stance is that if humanity is polluting and destroying the earth for all life, then possibly the Earth is better off without us. However I am not going to suggest that we make it our mission to rid the earth of humans.
That is why I list it as a potential rarity. Even if humans continue on prone to pollute their habitats as we do with Earth; you admit planets with the ability to develop life are far from rare.

I'm not saying perceived consciousness is a higher evolved state but it's a skill we need to make any rational stance on any issue.

As of right now, we don't know there are any other forms of intelligent life outside Earth/Earths orbit but we know there are other habitable zones in the universe.
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04-04-2012, 01:52 AM
 
RE: A Question
(03-04-2012 06:32 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  As Carl Sagan once said, "we are a way for the cosmos to know itself." As far as we know, we're the only species that has developed sentience and it should be viewed as an honor to be able to investigate the cosmos from which ourselves and all other forms of life and matter have come from. I guess I don't understand why you would feel like we should simply give that up and destroy it because a deity isn't behind it all. Why do you call it an indignity?

First off, Carl Sagan says it’s an honor? An honor bestowed by whom? And in an atheistic, chaotic, unordered universe, who cares about sentience?

I consider an atheistic universe to make life undignified, because all there is is inevitable suffering and death/loss for no reason. Consciousness in that context is a mistake. Life itself is a mistake in that context. The indignity is that we are forced by a cold black universe to experience it.

Quote:As humans, we're lucky to be able to do more than just survive life, like most other species, we can attempt to understand and improve life.

Again, why improve it? To what end?

(03-04-2012 06:44 PM)lucradis Wrote:  Thanks for sort of answering my questions.
I didn't expect much more, as every time I ask a theist those questions I get pretty dodgy answers. Not to say you don't believe what you say, just that I don't think it applies.

Okiedokie.

Quote:What I actually asked was what about heaven is the part that gives it meaning. I don't mean what happens, I mean what's the point. Sure more stuff happens, you meld with god vulcan style or something, but where's the point? The purpose. The greater thing. The end game so to speak. Every book has an ending. Every book has a plot line, and a point. What is the end game, the purpose, the reason? What makes going to heaven more purposeful than not going to heaven?



Good question. But what’s there to say? We were created to become freewill beings who voluntarily return to God and increase his glory in that way. We were created for his pleasure, and we only find pleasure when we are one with Him. And that is the reason to exist in heaven and the Kingdom of God. Because there can’t be any other reason. I firmly believe we were created for God. God was not created for us.

So, how is that more meaningful than a short pleasurable life on earth, assuming one gets to have one? It isn’t, I suppose, so long as you are destroyed at death. But if there is a hell…

But that’s a sidetrack. If there is a God and my theology is accurate, then we have a purpose. We exist to please God, and we were created so that joining into oneness with God is our greatest pleasure. But in an atheist universe, there is no meaning to our lives.

But I think I get what you are saying: Perhaps meaning doesn’t really matter that much. And perhaps it is the case that the only reason to believe in God and to be born again is to avoid hell and to become one with God, which is our greatest pleasure. Perhaps that’s as much meaning as a human being has.

Quote:Good question. I'd have to say my own. I feel the same way about people who don't take care of their things. If I see someone who treats their guitar like crap it infuriates me. If you dont take care of it then you don't appreciate it. Most people don't take care of themselves, or other people they know. Even I don't. Hell I used to be fit, now Im not fat but I'm not fit. I like pie is all.

It boils down to the same thing as where do my morals come from. To me my morals come from an empathic stand point. I don't go round killing people simply because I don't want to be killed. I don't rape people because I wouldn't want to be raped. It would suck. I don't steal from people because I hate being stolen from. I live my life and enjoy it because it is so rare and deserves to be enjoyed. Not because I'm told to. But because i want to.
I see [a lot] of people who don't seem to get it. They seem to live for the wrong reasons. But I could be wrong.

I don't get the torture bit, so I'll leave it for now.

And I think I answered the next question as to why stop anything already. If not shout it out.

I don't really know why as a species we would strive to survive except because we all have individual reasons and it forms a sort of group reasoning in itself. Honestly I doubt that as a species we want human survival. I think right now it is more of a case by case basis. Group related. This religious group over that one, this country over that one, this race over that one. It's all a bunch of groups trying to kill the other ones. Humans are never satisfied with the amount of spilled blood. There can always be more.

I think those are some good answers. And I can accept those as answers. But what if Jesus Christ was right? What if not believing in him (the definition of “believing in him” is a topic for another time) really pisses God off? What if it’s true that he sent this example for us to follow, and if we reject that example, he rejects us? Forget Church: maybe they are a prime example of people who go to hell, maybe they are the ultimate rejecters of Christ. I don’t think you or me agree with religion, per se. But what if God at least expects you to read about Jesus Christ, and even if you can’t prove the person existed, you are still expected to follow that example and expected to make your own religion out of it? No Church; just you.

If you are just destroyed at death, it doesn’t matter. That’s why I don’t get into what happens to other people in other religions. There may be an equivalent to believing in God and following Christ in that religion, or they may just be annihilated. Either way, it doesn’t matter much. But atheists, at least every one I have ever met, actively rejects God and Christ. What if that means hell?

Jesus thought so. And a lot of people over a lot of years have believed what he said. What if they are right, and you are wrong? I know you think God will have mercy on you if you are wrong, but what if it’s like, “Fuck you. You rejected me all your life, now I’m going to reject you all of my life.” Don’t you feel any fear at all at that prospect?



(03-04-2012 06:48 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  Do you have any concept of empathy Egor?

Why do you think I’m here trying to convince you that God exists? You do realize I believe 100% that you will go to hell if you die an atheist, don’t you? So what do you think?

(03-04-2012 08:48 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  My Christian family makes the same mistake of equating atheism and existential nihilism, so I understand where you're coming from, but you're still wrong.

Alright.

Quote:We live for the same things you do... family, friends, love and romance, fun, challenges and goals. Besides --- even most people who claim they "have nothing to live for" don't kill themselves because they still have a survival instinct, even while being atheist.

Right, but why should you care if humanity survives? I understand why you would care that you survive. But after you are gone, and if atheism is true, what difference could it make if the world continues to orbit the sun?

Quote:I have, in response to this, made the same claim about theists: why bother to continue living if the world beyond this one is so much better? But I already know the answer, because even though you claim that your beliefs are central, you also share these values and survival instinct.

That’s a good question: Why don’t I grab my taekwondo belt and hang myself right now? (Not that you asked that.)

Okay, this may seem a bit weird, but I just asked God and this is what He said to me: “Because I haven’t told you to.”

You can imagine my relief.

But I think I know what He means. I live for Him and to do His will. When I was reborn, I died. When I was saved, I gave up my life. He has spent a lot of years making me a writer and a publisher, and he has put me through a lot of travels so that I might serve Him. I don’t have the right to take my life without His permission. And the way He communicated it to me just now, I get the feeling if I did, He’d throw me in hell. He may not do that to everyone who commits suicide, but I get the impression He'd do it to me.

(03-04-2012 09:06 PM)DeepThought Wrote:  Based on Egor's previous reply it seems his mind is already made up on why Atheists value life. Why ask the question if you aren't going to accept the answer?

You ask the question and then immediately dismiss any answers and start attacking strawmen. Sounds like you already got your chapter written. Book closed. You aren't seeking understanding, instead you seek to confirm your current point of view.

I don’t know about that. Lucridis has made me think. I’ve actually grown a bit from this post. I’ve actually come to realize some things based on what the atheists in here have said. Consider
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04-04-2012, 07:25 AM
RE: A Question
this thread makes me laugh. I honestly don't feel that Egor values one bit what we respond to him. He is dismissive of the answers he either doesn't like or doesn't want to take the time to understand. He continues to apply his rules to the responses instead of attempting to comprehend. Back to ignore he goes.
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04-04-2012, 07:50 AM
RE: A Question
If there is a hell and because I don't worship god I'm to go to hell. I'm ok with that.
I've read the bible old and new and if the god from there exists I'd rather suffer for eternity than serve that guy and worship him.
I don't hate god before you suggest it, I don't find his existence likely enough to bother. But if he did exist and he was exactly as described I would hate god. And he'd deserve it. I could never worship him. No matter what it meant.

What of god gave us reason and logic and then purposefully made his message confusing and illogical to see how many of his creation would use his gifts to turn away from him even with the fear of eternal damnation. What if the only people who get into heaven are the ones who reject his existence. Maybe we're the only ones who make him proud.
Pascals wager works both ways.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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04-04-2012, 09:06 AM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2012 09:10 AM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: A Question
I'm wondering if you read my post. Since I've looked at this issue from both types of views in my own way. I felt it gave a good point to life. Good enough that I'm still here at least.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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