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04-04-2012, 09:30 AM
 
RE: A Question
(04-04-2012 07:25 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  this thread makes me laugh. I honestly don't feel that Egor values one bit what we respond to him. He is dismissive of the answers he either doesn't like or doesn't want to take the time to understand. He continues to apply his rules to the responses instead of attempting to comprehend. Back to ignore he goes.

How can you say that? I spent a lot of time on that last reply. Or do you mean because I won't convert to atheism, I'm not listening?


(04-04-2012 07:50 AM)lucradis Wrote:  If there is a hell and because I don't worship god I'm to go to hell. I'm ok with that.

See, that’s total B.S. You’re not okay with hell. You can’t be okay with hell without being insane. You can deny hell, but you can’t be okay with hell if you think it might actually exist.

Quote:I've read the bible old and new and if the god from there exists I'd rather suffer for eternity than serve that guy and worship him.

It’s easy to say while you are alive that you would give God the finger and walk proudly into hell. But that’s only because you haven’t looked at it as if it were a real possibility.

Quote:I don't hate god before you suggest it, I don't find his existence likely enough to bother. But if he did exist and he was exactly as described I would hate god. And he'd deserve it. I could never worship him. No matter what it meant.

And yet you hope that when you die you will cease to exist. If God is real, you would hate Him, but you would still want Him to show you mercy.

Quote:What of god gave us reason and logic and then purposefully made his message confusing and illogical to see how many of his creation would use his gifts to turn away from him even with the fear of eternal damnation.

I don’t find his message confusing or illogical. And you have to be at least as smart as I am.

Quote:What if the only people who get into heaven are the ones who reject his existence. Maybe we're the only ones who make him proud.
Pascals wager works both ways.

So, you’re saying that if there is a God, you would gladly accept heaven. But I thought you were going to flip him off and walk into hell if he exists. I thought if He exists, you intended to hate him.



Sorry, I don’t know how I missed this.

(03-04-2012 11:31 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I've discussed this before in another thread with a depressing undertone. Sadly you're being attacked because your assertion is that the best answer is to end everything. I agree with King that this is indeed an attack based solely on the questioner, though your later response really didn't help much. I'll agree that you phrased it in an odd way, and that you'll continue to make it seem like an attack on those who view life differently than you, but I'll answer your question.

I’m just asking a question. I’m not attacking anyone. This is probably why I overlooked this reply before. You have this whole persecution thing about me, this straw man that you just have to have attacking you (presumably because you are different) and it just ain’t so. I deliberately try not to attack you.

Quote:Life exists and life changes, what makes these changes? Is it the radical mutation that occurs once in a while or is it the steady alterations happening over time? Did Lincoln free the slaves or had the people who saw the slaves as more succeeded in culminating with his action? We may not be remembered, but the actions of each person are just as valid as those of the most well known. We are all responsible in shaping the cultural understandings of our surrounding communities.

Fine. But once you’re dead, if atheism is true, what difference does it make? If atheism is true, it’s not rational to care about future generations.

Quote:In the absurdity thread peterkin brought up soup kitchens. There are many things about life that seem completely meaningless, but at the same time can you truly tell yourself they shouldn't still be done? What would the world be like if no one worked at soup kitchens? How would things change? Humanity is a group not an individual, but that in no way lessens the impact of each individual. While we may be but specks in the universe we still matter. The same as all those smaller life forms that make us up. Their lives too have a great impact. The desperate struggle of life is what makes it so beautiful this will to continue and flourish.

I find the desperate struggle of life to be undignified unless it has a greater purpose than to merely exist. And before you condemn me for that, keep in mind that Jesus also thought that and taught that, and generations have believed him.
Quote:Growing up I was surrounded by this view that life without god is meaningless, not only that but I did not have god. I saw your argument as fact for a while, but eventually I lead myself to a realization. Meaning is not the right term but still it can work. My parents reason for going through all the things they've done has lead to me and I'm an off-shoot of their reasons along with my own. This system has been going on for longer than I truly can imagine. While there might not be something beyond there is definitely a sort of continual vision. Things moving forward ideas being passed along and changed. Sometimes good, sometimes horrible. I've seen amazing things in this life along with the horrid ones, and all of this random interpretation and guess work has led to it. Whatever life is, it's a lot more amazing than a simple word can desribe. More amazing than I can even understand. Mere glimpses are all that I will experience within my entire life. Most of these glimpses will be horrid, but some will challenge any negative impressions I can possibly have about the world.

We live in a big basic training camp. We are here to suffer and succeed. We are here to learn how to make a world in the Kingdom of Heaven. If God didn’t make us suffer, we’d never want to give this world up, and yet we’re not here very long. Eternity awaits.

Quote:You can argue that this enormity would suggest your belief system, but I've seen the framework of your beliefs and I disagree. I not only disagree, I can comprehend your framework. The universe is at an entirely different scale than some book. There's a reason so many different observations have been made by those who spend their time staring into the night sky. My signature at the bottom of my posts is completely true, while I do not agree with your belief at all I am willing to change. I just have come to my understanding through a very difficult life filled with a lot of inner dialogue. What I do know are things that I've observed and gained a grasp on.

Okay.

Quote:I know one thing truly about your beliefs, that one thing is that you are not as certain as you proclaim yourself to be.


Well, I’m evolving, too. There are lots of things I don’t fully understand, but I can say this for certain: God exists and He sent Jesus Christ to lead us to salvation.
Quote:I rarely discuss my own views on things because I feel it's wrong to impose a guess on others. The true reason for my dissatisfaction towards religion is that there has yet to be an acceptable answer. Yet so many are so certain that they know some immeasurable truth.

That’s why you have to have faith.
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04-04-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: A Question
(04-04-2012 01:52 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(03-04-2012 06:32 PM)Glaucus Wrote:  As Carl Sagan once said, "we are a way for the cosmos to know itself." As far as we know, we're the only species that has developed sentience and it should be viewed as an honor to be able to investigate the cosmos from which ourselves and all other forms of life and matter have come from. I guess I don't understand why you would feel like we should simply give that up and destroy it because a deity isn't behind it all. Why do you call it an indignity?

First off, Carl Sagan says it’s an honor? An honor bestowed by whom? And in an atheistic, chaotic, unordered universe, who cares about sentience?

I consider an atheistic universe to make life undignified, because all there is is inevitable suffering and death/loss for no reason. Consciousness in that context is a mistake. Life itself is a mistake in that context. The indignity is that we are forced by a cold black universe to experience it.

Quote:As humans, we're lucky to be able to do more than just survive life, like most other species, we can attempt to understand and improve life.

Again, why improve it? To what end?
I don't remember if Sagan said it was an honor, but that's my own view of sentience. It's bestowed upon humanity through natural selection. Higher brain function (which sentience appears to come from) is the tool that we use to survive, and we've found nothing like it in nature. That's why we care about sentience.

You may consider whatever you wish, but that doesn't make it true. To me, the universe is more beautiful since I became an atheist. It's no longer a simple waiting room to get to heaven, no longer a battlefield for Yahweh and Satan, it's a universe where we can forge our own meaning to life and make our own ends. We sit on a tiny rock, next to a tiny star, in the arm of an average galaxy, with the only example of life that we've found. That seems to me like something worth cherishing.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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04-04-2012, 11:43 AM
RE: A Question
Let me get this straight:
If there's no celestial dictator,we should just all kill ourselves?
That's a very depressing viewpoint,Egor.

The meaning of peace is the absence of opposition to socialism.
-Karl Marx


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04-04-2012, 12:02 PM
RE: A Question
I want the human race to survive because living can be a wonderful thing. It is not my place to try and destroy other people, nor should it be a "God's" place to do so either.

Bury me with my guns on, so when I reach the other side - I can show him what it feels like to die.
Bury me with my guns on, so when I'm cast out of the sky, I can shoot the devil right between the eyes.
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04-04-2012, 12:10 PM (This post was last modified: 04-04-2012 12:14 PM by Lilith Pride.)
RE: A Question
Not sure why you thought I was calling you an attacker, I was defending you and discussing why it seemed you were being viewed that way as constructive criticism. Guess my wrting is hard for you to interpret.

You want to see why it matters for the individual, but this is explained by what matters to the individual. Most individuals have an empathic urge to help those around them, those that share their concern. To drive certain things for others. It's very unconfident that any individual be completel self absorbed. My opinion is that you will find few who really feel there is nothing of importance outside of themselves so there is no great need for the end result to be self serving, as long as it is a good and desired end result.

I'm not a non believer, I believe in the possibility of anything. I just don't let the actuality of something be determined by a 3rd party.
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04-04-2012, 02:19 PM
RE: A Question
You've gotten many different answers from people Egor, and I hope that you understand that that speaks towards the idea that one all-encompassing "meaning of life" does not exist. Everyone creates their own meaning of life according to what they put into it and what they take out of it.

Of all the ideas put forth by science, it is the principle of Superposition that can undo any power of the gods. For the accumulation of smaller actions has the ability to create, destroy, and move the world.

"I am the master of my fate, I am the captain of my soul." -W. E. Henley
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04-04-2012, 07:01 PM
RE: A Question
(04-04-2012 01:52 AM)Egor Wrote:  
Quote:We live for the same things you do... family, friends, love and romance, fun, challenges and goals. Besides --- even most people who claim they "have nothing to live for" don't kill themselves because they still have a survival instinct, even while being atheist.

Right, but why should you care if humanity survives? I understand why you would care that you survive. But after you are gone, and if atheism is true, what difference could it make if the world continues to orbit the sun?

Quote:I have, in response to this, made the same claim about theists: why bother to continue living if the world beyond this one is so much better? But I already know the answer, because even though you claim that your beliefs are central, you also share these values and survival instinct.

That’s a good question: Why don’t I grab my taekwondo belt and hang myself right now? (Not that you asked that.)

Okay, this may seem a bit weird, but I just asked God and this is what He said to me: “Because I haven’t told you to.”

You can imagine my relief.
What a good question! Why would I care if humanity survives after I'm gone? The answer: I don't. I care that it survives right now because I depend on people. I still hate hearing about things like natural disasters killing lots of people because it reminds me of my own mortality and how easily I could lose my life or a loved one. But after I'm gone, I literally won't have feelings with which to feel a way about humanity's survival... and I'm pretty okay with that.

It's interesting to note that every time people talk to God, he always tells them what they want to hear.

You can imagine my surprise.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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04-04-2012, 11:49 PM
RE: A Question
For many of the same reasons you do I imagine.

The real question you should have asked before posting this is simple. Why would an Atheist have any different reasons then my own for wanting the continued survival of the human race?
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05-04-2012, 01:26 AM
RE: A Question
This is pretty much the worst question ever...
Short answer: because atheists have morals and killing is wrong, for any reason. (especially the reason: my book told me to do it).

Slightly less short answer: You can easily counter it with something like 'Why doesn't someone who goes from christian to atheist kill all those potential killers?' (the bible tells christians that infallible god created infallible rules for us to live by and if we don't follow those the offenders must be killed)
Because atheists have morals and killing is wrong, for any reason.

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Eternal Pragmatist.
With the uncanny ability to see all sides in every argument.
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05-04-2012, 07:18 AM
RE: A Question
I just checked out Egor's website, and I ROFLMAOed until I cried. I am seriously debating whether or not he is a nut job, or the most epic troll ever.
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