A Question
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
05-04-2012, 08:54 AM
RE: A Question
(04-04-2012 09:30 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(04-04-2012 07:25 AM)devilsadvoc8 Wrote:  this thread makes me laugh. I honestly don't feel that Egor values one bit what we respond to him. He is dismissive of the answers he either doesn't like or doesn't want to take the time to understand. He continues to apply his rules to the responses instead of attempting to comprehend. Back to ignore he goes.

How can you say that? I spent a lot of time on that last reply. Or do you mean because I won't convert to atheism, I'm not listening?


(04-04-2012 07:50 AM)lucradis Wrote:  If there is a hell and because I don't worship god I'm to go to hell. I'm ok with that.

See, that’s total B.S. You’re not okay with hell. You can’t be okay with hell without being insane. You can deny hell, but you can’t be okay with hell if you think it might actually exist.

Quote:I've read the bible old and new and if the god from there exists I'd rather suffer for eternity than serve that guy and worship him.

It’s easy to say while you are alive that you would give God the finger and walk proudly into hell. But that’s only because you haven’t looked at it as if it were a real possibility.

Quote:I don't hate god before you suggest it, I don't find his existence likely enough to bother. But if he did exist and he was exactly as described I would hate god. And he'd deserve it. I could never worship him. No matter what it meant.

And yet you hope that when you die you will cease to exist. If God is real, you would hate Him, but you would still want Him to show you mercy.

Quote:What of god gave us reason and logic and then purposefully made his message confusing and illogical to see how many of his creation would use his gifts to turn away from him even with the fear of eternal damnation.

I don’t find his message confusing or illogical. And you have to be at least as smart as I am.

Quote:What if the only people who get into heaven are the ones who reject his existence. Maybe we're the only ones who make him proud.
Pascals wager works both ways.

So, you’re saying that if there is a God, you would gladly accept heaven. But I thought you were going to flip him off and walk into hell if he exists. I thought if He exists, you intended to hate him.



Sorry, I don’t know how I missed this.

(03-04-2012 11:31 AM)Lilith Pride Wrote:  I've discussed this before in another thread with a depressing undertone. Sadly you're being attacked because your assertion is that the best answer is to end everything. I agree with King that this is indeed an attack based solely on the questioner, though your later response really didn't help much. I'll agree that you phrased it in an odd way, and that you'll continue to make it seem like an attack on those who view life differently than you, but I'll answer your question.

I’m just asking a question. I’m not attacking anyone. This is probably why I overlooked this reply before. You have this whole persecution thing about me, this straw man that you just have to have attacking you (presumably because you are different) and it just ain’t so. I deliberately try not to attack you.

Quote:Life exists and life changes, what makes these changes? Is it the radical mutation that occurs once in a while or is it the steady alterations happening over time? Did Lincoln free the slaves or had the people who saw the slaves as more succeeded in culminating with his action? We may not be remembered, but the actions of each person are just as valid as those of the most well known. We are all responsible in shaping the cultural understandings of our surrounding communities.

Fine. But once you’re dead, if atheism is true, what difference does it make? If atheism is true, it’s not rational to care about future generations.

Quote:In the absurdity thread peterkin brought up soup kitchens. There are many things about life that seem completely meaningless, but at the same time can you truly tell yourself they shouldn't still be done? What would the world be like if no one worked at soup kitchens? How would things change? Humanity is a group not an individual, but that in no way lessens the impact of each individual. While we may be but specks in the universe we still matter. The same as all those smaller life forms that make us up. Their lives too have a great impact. The desperate struggle of life is what makes it so beautiful this will to continue and flourish.

I find the desperate struggle of life to be undignified unless it has a greater purpose than to merely exist. And before you condemn me for that, keep in mind that Jesus also thought that and taught that, and generations have believed him.
Quote:Growing up I was surrounded by this view that life without god is meaningless, not only that but I did not have god. I saw your argument as fact for a while, but eventually I lead myself to a realization. Meaning is not the right term but still it can work. My parents reason for going through all the things they've done has lead to me and I'm an off-shoot of their reasons along with my own. This system has been going on for longer than I truly can imagine. While there might not be something beyond there is definitely a sort of continual vision. Things moving forward ideas being passed along and changed. Sometimes good, sometimes horrible. I've seen amazing things in this life along with the horrid ones, and all of this random interpretation and guess work has led to it. Whatever life is, it's a lot more amazing than a simple word can desribe. More amazing than I can even understand. Mere glimpses are all that I will experience within my entire life. Most of these glimpses will be horrid, but some will challenge any negative impressions I can possibly have about the world.

We live in a big basic training camp. We are here to suffer and succeed. We are here to learn how to make a world in the Kingdom of Heaven. If God didn’t make us suffer, we’d never want to give this world up, and yet we’re not here very long. Eternity awaits.

Quote:You can argue that this enormity would suggest your belief system, but I've seen the framework of your beliefs and I disagree. I not only disagree, I can comprehend your framework. The universe is at an entirely different scale than some book. There's a reason so many different observations have been made by those who spend their time staring into the night sky. My signature at the bottom of my posts is completely true, while I do not agree with your belief at all I am willing to change. I just have come to my understanding through a very difficult life filled with a lot of inner dialogue. What I do know are things that I've observed and gained a grasp on.

Okay.

Quote:I know one thing truly about your beliefs, that one thing is that you are not as certain as you proclaim yourself to be.


Well, I’m evolving, too. There are lots of things I don’t fully understand, but I can say this for certain: God exists and He sent Jesus Christ to lead us to salvation.
Quote:I rarely discuss my own views on things because I feel it's wrong to impose a guess on others. The true reason for my dissatisfaction towards religion is that there has yet to be an acceptable answer. Yet so many are so certain that they know some immeasurable truth.

That’s why you have to have faith.
Before I get started here, I want to applaud you on some serious word twisting. Not a very enjoyable debating tactic Mr. Egor. Won't work with me.

I never said I would enjoy hell. You know I didn't unless you're batshit insane. I said I would be ok with it. With the options listed, one being eternal servitude in heaven to a guy that does things I don't morally agree with, or to suffer for all eternity in hell. I'd be ok with the idea of suffering in one way over the other.

Chances are that if there were a god he'd make me feel regret anyways though.

I also wouldn't want his "mercy" though again, if there were a god I'm sure he wouldn't allow any further rejection and would make me want it.

Also I of course find the message conveyed within the bible to be confusing and illogical. If it weren't why would there be so many denominations? Why would you yourself have been on the fence about whether you could be a full on Veridican or whether that was a part of normal Christianity? Your statement is illogical.

My last question about whether or not God was playing a big sneaky game with theists was more for you. I'm pretty sure if I got up to heaven and god was all like "hey check this out, look at all the theists in line for hell, hahahah jokes on them" I'd be like, "you're a dick" to which I'm sure he would either banish me to hell or something equally distasteful.

But you didn't answer that one.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-04-2012, 09:09 AM
RE: A Question
Hell is only ever "without god" and asshats who say otherwise cannot properly parse scripture. That's one thing that makes me wanna break out the A-K. Fuckers talk about "eternal torment" only express their own twisted desires.

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes houseofcantor's post
05-04-2012, 09:10 AM
RE: A Question
Yes that's true. It is described as torment only in the regard of having to suffer an eternity without god.
To me, that would be just like now, only longer.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-04-2012, 09:12 AM
RE: A Question
But then heaven would be like an eternity with my Gwynnies...

(swoon... thud)

Where was I? Oh, yeah. Egor's an asshat. Does that answer the question? Big Grin

[Image: klingon_zps7e68578a.jpg]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-04-2012, 09:32 AM
RE: A Question
I cannot comprehend this thought. I do not need a god for purpose in life or for justifying our existence. From what I can see we have this one ride, we owe it to ourselves and others to behave in the most humane and positive way.

"For centuries, theologians have been explaining the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing"

H.L Mencken

" Generally speaking, the errors in religion are dangerous; those in philosophy only ridiculous."
David Hume
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes KidCharlemagne1962's post
05-04-2012, 03:17 PM
 
RE: A Question
(05-04-2012 09:10 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Yes that's true. It is described as torment only in the regard of having to suffer an eternity without god.
To me, that would be just like now, only longer.

Here is what I think about hell. And if you ask me how I know, all I can say is that God has shown me the revelation of the symbols of hell as Jesus presented it in the Gospel. Obviously, I don’t have any Polaroids.

That being said, the concept of hell cannot be understood without a concept of God and man’s relation to God, and it can’t be understood without first understanding heaven. So, if you stick with me for a minute, I will make a point.

We are created separate from God with the hopes that we will use our free will to become one with God. That is what God wants. If I were a god, I would want the same thing, and I would create (or try to create) free will creatures for the same reason.

For us, there is no greater pleasure than to be one with God, whether we realize it or not. In fact, all the pleasures here on earth are like models of the pleasure we experience when we are with God (wealth, power, fame, love, orgasm, opiate intoxication, chocolate, whatever.) We seek these earthly pleasures because we cannot form a union with God at this time. These are surrogate pleasures.

When we die, we are not yet the freewill agents that God wants to form a union with; we have another baptism to go through. This is called the kingdom of heaven. In the kingdom of heaven, we are allowed much greater control over our environment than we have here in this life. The best model for this is a lucid dream. It is in this kingdom of heaven that we become like God. And it may go on for what we think of as millions of years. Every kingdom is different with each person who enters it. Compared to this life, it is much better because we are free from any needs (we won’t even need air or water.). It is in this environment that we fully develop.

However, getting to the kingdom of heaven requires that we pass certain tests in this life. The number one test is believing in God and recognizing Jesus Christ.

There will be those who never know Christ. They are simply destroyed at death, annihilated. If some believer were to resurrect such a person in their kingdom of heaven, fine, but otherwise, they are gone forever. Then there are those who know Christ but reject him and what he stands for. Atheists are number one in this. For them, hell awaits.

Hell is a very simple concept: You use your free will to reject God, so He then rejects you. When you die, you will know God exists, but you won’t enter the kingdom of heaven. Rather, you will keep moving toward God with no hope of ever reaching him. You won’t be progressing and you won’t be annihilated. You will want God—the only source of our pleasure—but you will be eternally removed. God will always be that light at the end of the tunnel you never reach, permanent dissatisfaction, constant unfulfilled longing. You will know God exists; you will want union with God, but you will never have it. You will be in a permanent state of wishing for it. This is best modeled as a lake of fire, an outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, a long black lonely tunnel where you run after the light and it pulls away just as fast.

Life now is kind of like hell, but at least it ends and has the surrogate pleasures. Hell has no surrogate pleasures and presumably it never ends.

You can hate me; it doesn’t matter. Even I don’t think I’m that likable of a person. You can refuse to accept that God has anything to do with me; that’s fine. But you need to believe what I’m telling you about this. Anyone’s life can end at any minute and the deal is you only have this life to use your free will to believe in God and Christ. What religion you make from the Gospel of Christ is your business—it’s between you and God. Liberal, conservative, spirit-filled, ascetic, whatever; it is up to you and God to form your religion. But you have to do something.
Quote this message in a reply
05-04-2012, 05:34 PM
RE: A Question
Life is precious because it is so contingent. We didn't have to be here, but here we are. That alone makes it worth preserving.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Chas's post
05-04-2012, 05:47 PM
RE: A Question
(05-04-2012 05:34 PM)Chas Wrote:  Life is precious because it is so contingent. We didn't have to be here, but here we are. That alone makes it worth preserving.

Not only that alone, but also only that.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
05-04-2012, 08:08 PM
RE: A Question
(05-04-2012 03:17 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(05-04-2012 09:10 AM)lucradis Wrote:  Yes that's true. It is described as torment only in the regard of having to suffer an eternity without god.
To me, that would be just like now, only longer.

Here is what I think about hell. And if you ask me how I know, all I can say is that God has shown me the revelation of the symbols of hell as Jesus presented it in the Gospel. Obviously, I don’t have any Polaroids.

That being said, the concept of hell cannot be understood without a concept of God and man’s relation to God, and it can’t be understood without first understanding heaven. So, if you stick with me for a minute, I will make a point.

We are created separate from God with the hopes that we will use our free will to become one with God. That is what God wants. If I were a god, I would want the same thing, and I would create (or try to create) free will creatures for the same reason.

For us, there is no greater pleasure than to be one with God, whether we realize it or not. In fact, all the pleasures here on earth are like models of the pleasure we experience when we are with God (wealth, power, fame, love, orgasm, opiate intoxication, chocolate, whatever.) We seek these earthly pleasures because we cannot form a union with God at this time. These are surrogate pleasures.

When we die, we are not yet the freewill agents that God wants to form a union with; we have another baptism to go through. This is called the kingdom of heaven. In the kingdom of heaven, we are allowed much greater control over our environment than we have here in this life. The best model for this is a lucid dream. It is in this kingdom of heaven that we become like God. And it may go on for what we think of as millions of years. Every kingdom is different with each person who enters it. Compared to this life, it is much better because we are free from any needs (we won’t even need air or water.). It is in this environment that we fully develop.

However, getting to the kingdom of heaven requires that we pass certain tests in this life. The number one test is believing in God and recognizing Jesus Christ.

There will be those who never know Christ. They are simply destroyed at death, annihilated. If some believer were to resurrect such a person in their kingdom of heaven, fine, but otherwise, they are gone forever. Then there are those who know Christ but reject him and what he stands for. Atheists are number one in this. For them, hell awaits.

Hell is a very simple concept: You use your free will to reject God, so He then rejects you. When you die, you will know God exists, but you won’t enter the kingdom of heaven. Rather, you will keep moving toward God with no hope of ever reaching him. You won’t be progressing and you won’t be annihilated. You will want God—the only source of our pleasure—but you will be eternally removed. God will always be that light at the end of the tunnel you never reach, permanent dissatisfaction, constant unfulfilled longing. You will know God exists; you will want union with God, but you will never have it. You will be in a permanent state of wishing for it. This is best modeled as a lake of fire, an outer darkness where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, a long black lonely tunnel where you run after the light and it pulls away just as fast.

Life now is kind of like hell, but at least it ends and has the surrogate pleasures. Hell has no surrogate pleasures and presumably it never ends.

You can hate me; it doesn’t matter. Even I don’t think I’m that likable of a person. You can refuse to accept that God has anything to do with me; that’s fine. But you need to believe what I’m telling you about this. Anyone’s life can end at any minute and the deal is you only have this life to use your free will to believe in God and Christ. What religion you make from the Gospel of Christ is your business—it’s between you and God. Liberal, conservative, spirit-filled, ascetic, whatever; it is up to you and God to form your religion. But you have to do something.
Oh Egor. I shouldn't even give you the attention since I know you won't pay a single heed to anything I'm about to say but I find so much wrong with your argument I don't even know where to start.

First of all the free will argument you make has a huge gaping hole in it that any violates the nature of god as described in your bible. There are two large problems with this I'll get into in short detail and will expand on if I need to.

1. You can create choice without evil. When you choose what to wear or what to eat for breakfast you have free will of choice without any of the options being evil. A benevolent god would never create a world of "free-will" with evil choice as a possibility. A caring god would create a world of free will without harm.

2. If you leave a person only two absolute choices of either absolute reward or punishment then you are not leaving a person any honest choice at all. If I put a gun to your head and tell you that you either obey my law to wear only white clothing every Friday for the rest of your life and be rewarded $10 000 000 or I will shoot you in the head I'm not really giving you any fair choice.

Moving on from there do you have any way of measuring this "separation from god" assuming it exists? Do you have any way of showing that it exists. No then your making an assertion that has no backing whatsoever. You would think if what you claim is true god would have left us with a way of determining how is closest to him so clear leadership could be derived in the church. Instead we get over 3000 denominations and crazy nut-jobs like yourself creating more all the time.

Your next few paragraphs that follow this assertion also fail to provide any proof of existence or measure of scale. Were you aware that the centers of the brain are different from centers active during religious experience. May want to check that before you link spirituality with pleasure.

You assert a lot about heaven with no actual backing even theologically. I don't even know what to say at this point other then let's see some backing for anything you say.

Then you pull an odd smelly one right out of a place I don't even want to see. You assert that any soul that should be so unfortunate that the perfect plan of your omniscience, omnipresent, benevolent god would simply be put out of existence if they die. I mean wow. You really don't see the logical fallacy of how badly your god just failed in that case.....
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
06-04-2012, 11:50 AM
 
RE: A Question
(05-04-2012 08:08 PM)Godless Wrote:  Oh Egor. I shouldn't even give you the attention since I know you won't pay a single heed to anything I'm about to say but I find so much wrong with your argument I don't even know where to start.

I’m all ears!

Quote:First of all the free will argument you make has a huge gaping hole in it that any violates the nature of god as described in your bible.

Stop right there. I don’t follow the Bible. I follow the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ. If you want to quote from Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John, there may be enough similarities that we can debate what you said, but I am not a Christian and I don’t follow or defend what the Holy Bible says.

Quote:There are two large problems with this I'll get into in short detail and will expand on if I need to.

You can create choice without evil. When you choose what to wear or what to eat for breakfast you have free will of choice without any of the options being evil. A benevolent god would never create a world of "free-will" with evil choice as a possibility. A caring god would create a world of free will without harm.

Well then, apparently the idea you have of God isn’t accurate. Apparently He does not represent your idea of benevolent or caring. But that’s a problem you have. It says nothing about the existence of God.

Quote:If you leave a person only two absolute choices of either absolute reward or punishment then you are not leaving a person any honest choice at all. If I put a gun to your head and tell you that you either obey my law to wear only white clothing every Friday for the rest of your life and be rewarded $10 000 000 or I will shoot you in the head I'm not really giving you any fair choice.

First off, I hear what you’re saying and it should make sense, but it doesn’t, because many atheists I have talked to seem to willingly accept going to hell rather than acknowledging God.
Also, in this phase of life, we are given extremely limited free choice. About the only choice we can make freely is to point ourselves toward God or point ourselves away from God. And even in that, He’s gone out of His way to make it an easy choice to get right. See Pascal’s Wager.

Quote:Moving on from there do you have any way of measuring this "separation from god" assuming it exists? Do you have any way of showing that it exists. No then your making an assertion that has no backing whatsoever.

This separation is a line. That’s it. God is monistic in nature. But a line, as you know from geometry is a mental construct. God creates lines within himself and that causes the dualism between He and each one of us. To make it so you don’t exist, all He has to do is stop imagining the line.

And I will grant you that is only a theory. But it seems to explain what I observe. However, I could be wrong and it is not a core belief of Veridicanism. The only core of Veridicanism is the Veridican Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Quote:You would think if what you claim is true god would have left us with a way of determining how [who] is closest to him so clear leadership could be derived in the church. Instead we get over 3000 denominations and crazy nut-jobs like yourself creating more all the time.

You just couldn't help yourself, could you? You had to insult me, and for no reason at all. If I had read this far before responding to you, you're right, I wouldn't have responded to you. See what happens with free will? Give a person a little more free will, like the ability to talk on a forum without social consequence, and this is how they behave. If that's the best you can do with the little that God has given you, why should He ever give you any more? Undecided
Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: