A Request for Sources
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17-12-2012, 02:12 PM
A Request for Sources
Hello All,

I recently went home for an early Xmas with some extended family, which included my entire immediate family. During the drive back with my parents before I left to go back home, we encountered the almost avoided discussion of religion. It happened in the car when their Service Engine light came on and my mother asked for everyone to pray for a safe trip home and for all the kids to bow their heads in silent prayer. I lost it. I normally just let them do their thing, they have... on some level accepted that I have disowned the christian god, and any deity for that matter, so we had an understanding to just let sleeping dogs lie. But for whatever reason, her statement and demand for prayer was the straw that broke the camels back.

We had a 5 hour discussion on a range of topics, I cleared up a lot of grey areas on their thinkings of what the big bang theory actually was, the higgs-boson, and basic evolution as well as the logic behind a deity in the first place. My mistake was 2-fold. 1: I didn't have them utilize what I had told them to address their questions. I just answered their questions and we moved on to the next topic failing to try and bring anything back full circle. 2: I brought it up in the first place.

Either way, my mother has agreed to email me some questions regarding where I stood, where I stand, and how it came to be so (was raised in the church of christ). In addition to answering those questions, I decided I would put something together for her. Very similar to a thorough essay, on why I do not believe and the evidence that mounts against such beliefs. I already have some good sources, but since I have all of you, I figured I would ask you all if you have any source information you would like to share that might benefit this... dare I say... endeavor.

Most likely this will all amount to nothing. My family constantly backs into the inescapable corner that is "I live by faith" or "I believe because of faith." Most likely, this is what they will do at the end. But I believe they and I owe to it to each other to have at least 1, educated, informed, and organized talk about that which they believe so passionately about, and I don't believe in at all.

I'll accept whatever you all shove my way, though might not use it. I am basically simply using different sources to reinforce my subjects or points in my "essay" to/for her. Anything you would like to provide that is inspiring or insightul to you would be appreciated. Thank you.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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17-12-2012, 02:17 PM
RE: A Request for Sources
Forget it! Spend your time and energy on worthwhile stuff.
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17-12-2012, 02:43 PM
RE: A Request for Sources
(17-12-2012 02:17 PM)Janus Wrote:  Forget it! Spend your time and energy on worthwhile stuff.

I can't deny the truth in this, but I love my family and my mother has asked this of me. So like I said, I owe it to them to have at least 1 thorough conversation about it. Appreciate the honesty though.

And yet another interesting topic I am not interested in.
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17-12-2012, 03:08 PM
RE: A Request for Sources
What are you wanting from us? Scientific citations? You know why you don't believe, and why no one should, or you don't know why. If you know why it shouldn't be believed then you don't need anything. If you don't know why you don't believe then you should first ask yourself. Not trying to be a dick. Want do you want?

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17-12-2012, 03:24 PM
RE: A Request for Sources
Yeah. This is a pretty broad topic.

Personally, I think this is a lost cause... as, to my knowledge, there isn't anything without reconciliation.

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17-12-2012, 05:35 PM
RE: A Request for Sources
(17-12-2012 03:24 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yeah. This is a pretty broad topic.

Personally, I think this is a lost cause... as, to my knowledge, there isn't anything without reconciliation.


There you go again... your "knowledge"... You know fuck all, KC! You're just aping what it says in that great book of fairy tales, and parroting what the 'priesthood' has been whining for 1700 years. As do another couple billion. You're delusional if you think you know. But what else is new.
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17-12-2012, 06:35 PM
RE: A Request for Sources
(17-12-2012 05:35 PM)Janus Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 03:24 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Yeah. This is a pretty broad topic.

Personally, I think this is a lost cause... as, to my knowledge, there isn't anything without reconciliation.


There you go again... your "knowledge"... You know fuck all, KC! You're just aping what it says in that great book of fairy tales, and parroting what the 'priesthood' has been whining for 1700 years. As do another couple billion. You're delusional if you think you know. But what else is new.
"As to my knowledge" is a figure of speech which means "in my limited amount of understanding on the subject".

Semantic antics, eh?

Anyway, yes. I don't "know" anything. Zero. There is no knowledge because to "know" something requires absolution. There are no absolutes. So, I have a great leaning towards certain things... but I don't "know".

I've never claimed knowledge either... I've actually been very vocal about not being gnostic.

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17-12-2012, 06:59 PM
RE: A Request for Sources
Have you tried asking her why she believes faith is a reliable method of knowing or believing something? You could cite examples of some other humans who believe in some rather odd things and show her what faith looks like from the outside.

Of course, this may have zero effect.

Here are some examples of people who thought faith was a reliable way to know things:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cargo_cult


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_jones


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Koresh


Of course, in the last 2 examples, it's really the people who followed them that felt faith was reliable. As to the leaders themselves, that is less certain.

He's not the Messiah. He's a very naughty boy! -Brian's mum
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17-12-2012, 07:06 PM
RE: A Request for Sources
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...ce-Library



This might help you in anyway possible. I hope you have a very enlightening discussion.

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Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
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17-12-2012, 10:32 PM
RE: A Request for Sources
I think Sam Harris is extremely eloquent, and his book Letter to a Christian Nation put the case best. It's written specifically to fundamentalist Christians (as I assume your mother is), and the audio book is a mere 1.5 hours... that's my suggestion.

However, I agree with what these guys have said. It is possible to convert from religion to atheism... I did it myself. But it rarely happens. Your mother's friends are probably all Christian. Her lifestyle and rituals are built around Christianity. Her worldview is based on a foundation of Christian beliefs. It would be difficult for her to change, even if she found that she couldn't refute your claims. The reason that most conversions happen in college or in the military or some such location is because the transition isn't so world-upending and insanely difficult, and that's why your mother isn't going to change.

Plus, it's highly unlikely that she'd even listen to a short 1.5 hour audio book that offended her (and of course it would offend her). Do you read Christian books or listen to hour-long podcasts/movies put together by Christians? If you do, you're in the minority along with me. So I imagine you can understand how and why that just wouldn't happen.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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