A Response to Creationist on: Tiktaalik Roseae
23-01-2014, 06:22 PM (This post was last modified: 23-01-2014 08:43 PM by Metazoa Zeke.)
A Response to Creationist on: Tiktaalik Roseae
Well it looks like I'm going to get on creationist about Tiktaalik. Looks like they can't find there inner fish. The infamous (no) Answers in Genesis has a response to this. They were upset to see scientific minds laugh at them. So they attacked a newspaper article on it instead of a scientific paper. Wonder why? There are a few things the two authors said that made me laugh so i'll address them before I get to tiktaalik.
"The discovery of the fossil “Tiktaalik” has been one of the most-widely picked up pro-evolution media stories since the (in)famous 1996 claim eventually shown to be false that life had been found in a meteorite from Mars."
First they talk about life on mars being debunked. First off life on mars is still a mystery to scientist. Knowing creationist and how they put there faults on us so they can look even, they think when science talks about something new they are researching, they think they're saying it is proof for evolution. Well sorry to break it to you but no scientist has said that life on mars is proof of evolution. At best it would more support abiogenesis. Also there is still a debate on it. I for one have not accepted that life is on mars until there is a scientific consensus that says that it did. Even at the time of it's discovery they were still debating on weather its true or not.(1)
"Some paleontologists are even claiming that Tiktaalik has the potential to become another Archaeopteryx for any evolutionist wanting to cite an ironclad example of a transitional form."
I now have another thing I can debunk from your website, thanks answers in genesis your making this to easy.
"The reports say that the skeletons (supposedly 375 million years old and up to nine feet long) have fish characteristics such as fins and a gill, but also characteristics that, according to the Times, “anticipate the emergence of land animals—and is thus a predecessor of amphibians, reptiles and dinosaurs … .”
This part is very funny. I love that in this part they mention two of tiktaalik's fish traits but then never name its tetrapod traits that show how its connected to amphibians,reptiles, and birds(get it). This is so that their cover isn't blown and they won't get caught lying for Jesus by there followers.
"No creationist to our knowledge has yet done a careful analysis on this fossil. Until one of our scientists or an adjunct AiG researcher has conducted a careful study, we will not issue a conclusive statement."
This has to be the funniest thing they have said on this article. Creationist don't want to look at the fossil for research. They want to look at it so they can go "I've seen the fossil there are no tetrapod traits about it." You guys don't care about looking at it you just want to make your lie look more credible. Nice try. Now on to tiktaalik.
"There is the coelacanth fish, found in the same geological system (Devonian it is called) as this Tiktaalik discovery, that also has lobe fins. These lobe fins were once thought to enable the coelacanth to walk on the ocean floor (in fact it was, like “Tiklaalik,” once considered by evolutionists to be a type of transitional form). Later, it was determined that the coelacanth fins were used for better maneuvering through the water, and not for walking. The new creature uncovered in the Arctic might be something similar."
What's funny is that you guys don't give a source for this. Wonder why? The regular coelacanth was never said to have done what tiktaalik has done. It has been said it was thought to be able to walk. But science doing what it does corrected that mistake. Also coelacanth is not like a lungfish and a tetrapod(2), which fairs much better. Also coelacanths were around before tiktaalik evolved.(3) Also never once did a hear a scientist say ever that coelacanths were a part of the collection of tetrapod transitional fossils. If you under stood science you would know that these lobed-fined fishes had a common ancestor. There was however another fish that had to deal with tetrapods. It may not have been with coelacanths or with tiktaalik but it comes in between. It was asteolepis(4), another transitional fossil connecting lobe-fined fishes with early tetrapods like tiktaalik.
"Also, there are other creatures (e.g., the Panderichthys) that are thought to be fish and yet appear to be similar in lobe and fin structure to Tiktaalik. In addition, the bones for Panderichthys, Tiktaalik and the coelacanth are embedded in the muscle, and are not attached to the axial skeleton, which you would find in a reptile or amphibian (and which would be necessary for weight-bearing appendages)."
There needs to be a word for the creationist act of using transitional fossil in an attempt to ignore other transitional fossils. Panderichthys existed before tiktaalik(4). Panderichthys shows a link between lobe-fined fishes and early tetrapods as well(5). Though it is correct that tiktaalik didn't walk like later tetrapods, however it did have fins that were much different then it's early ancestors(6). But I'm going to pour more salt on these creationist wounds and list some more of tiktaalik's tetrapod traits. It had a neck,ribs, a flat head, and ear notches. So tiktaalik did have fins but they were different from panderichthys and coelacanths. Quit lying for jesus.
"As we often state on this website, keep in mind that evolutionists and creationists have the same facts (e.g., fossils), but interpret the facts uncovered today differently in regard to the past. Because evolutionists want to discover transitional forms, when they find a very old fish with leg-bone-like bones in its fins, they want to interpret this as evidence that it is some sort of transitional creature. However, other fish seem to have the same sort of structure as stated above, and these bones are not constructed as one would expect for weight-bearing legs. It may be just another example of the wonderful design of our Creator God."
You guys made me laugh,cry,and laugh again. We don't look at the same evidence. When science saw tiktaalik we truly examined it with a skeptical objective mind. That's also why you only looked at tiktaalik's fish traits. If you really looking at the same evidence then you would notice the tetrapod traits. Also if your god can make mismatch animals then why didn't he create catbug or the warners, so that when we see tiktaalik we can tell that it was just what god wanted to create? Why did your god make it so we would think evolution happens in the first place? Well there goes the god can't lie business.
"All they have actually found is a fish that is another example of a lobe-finned fish (one of which still lives today—the coelacanth) that has bones similar in position to those seen in the arm and wrist of land-walking creatures—except these structures support fins with rays in them, not digits like fingers and toes (and as has been stated, they are NOT connected to the axial skeleton)."
Great which fish. You left no source its like you just expect someone to read this and not check your sources. Also there are fossils that are fish and tetrapods. Talk origins gives some examples(7). You guys can't mention these though other wise your fans would learn that you're lying. I already explained coelacanths so i won't repeat my self on it. This is why you made me an atheist AIG and you earned my you made me an athiest award.
"We will, however, continue to use words like “might” and “appear” until AiG can gain better access to the researchers’ findings and also study fossil fish that are similar to Tiktaalik. It is vital that we gather as much data as we can. At some time, we might discover (as was the case when closer examination revealed the really was no evidence of life on that Mars meteorite) that this fossil discovery has an alternative/better interpretation of the evidence."
To translate the first part in english, they're basically saying until we see the fossil in real life then walk away so we can tell you it has no tetrapod traits. I went over the mars thing as well so i won't repeat myself. There is already the best interpretation. It has been examined before. It has passed peer-review. What you are trying to say is to find a better excuse then the ones you already have.
"For the moment, we can confidently state that evolutionists have no examples of mutations or evolutionary processes that can lead to an increase in genetic information in a creature that would, for example, develop the appendage of a land animal from the fin of a fish (as would be required by molecules-to-man evolution). Evolution is stopped in its tracks at this point."
Really? I wish you creationist would stop making this empty and false claim. What about bacteria that became multi-celled(8), or the HeLa cells(9). This abstract shows what a beneficial mutation is.(10) Tiktaalik is a good fossil, I just explained why.
"This website has consistently demonstrated that fossil creatures are essentially the same (stasis), or have degenerated (lost information, the opposite of what evolution requires). This is predicted in the creation model (animals reproducing “after their kind”; Genesis 1:24–25). Also, creationists have shown that the evidence found in the fossil record is highly consistent with catastrophism (i.e., a worldwide flood such as the Flood of Noah in the book of Genesis)."
Your website has consistently lied. I hate liars. You lie so you can make money off of peoples delusions. Fossils will stay the same because they're dead. However when they were alive tetrapods could reproduce and pass on traits. Also evolution is only gaining. In evolution losing parts is some times the benefit. Evolution is a lot more then what you make it liars.(11) I already got you on your whole kind lie before. This is my prediction, the creation model is a lie used to trick and enslave the masses into giving you apologist money. Your religion will one day die at the hands of reality. And that day is coming,that's why your master Ken Ham is complaining about teens being atheist, because each generation coming is getting to smart for your BS. I don't care if it happens before I die or after.
"We would disprove evolution."
You should know the deal. All scrutiny is aloud