A Rock So Heavy
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25-11-2013, 03:36 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 02:08 PM)Chas Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 01:01 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  I did define the infinities.

Likewise, the question assumes the infinities asserted by Christian theology.

And being infinitely less than another infinity is invalid. That cannot be.

Infinite has no beginning or end; therefore, no less or more.

I understand that you're comparing two different infinities to each other, but then saying that one is more or one is less is invalid. That's presuming that one has limits.

And, I'm still not agreeing with you that omnipotence's infinities can have certain limitations.

EX - Self limiting

That's not being infinite. It's being nearly infinite but not infinite.

I don't think one has to clearly define the infinities of this argument. The words' denotations are enough.

Sorry, kc, you are simply wrong. There are infinitely many different sized infinities.

You are barred from further discussions of infinity until you bone up on Cantor. Dodgy

Fair enough.

But, like Impulse pointed out.

We're not talking about math.

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25-11-2013, 04:06 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  God makes a universe with a big rock in it whose mass fills every bit of its space.

Before you go on, I already have a few questions and comments.

If a universe requires the cause "God" in order to begin to exist, what caused "God" to begin to exist? Does he require a cause as well, or not? Why or why not?

If the mass of this "big rock" fills all of the space, does that mean the universe is finite? Are we sure of that? How can we be sure it is not infinite?

If the mass of this "big rock", or "the universe" is designed specifically to fit all the "space" just lying around, does that mean the concept of "space" existed previously to the universe? If so, how can something exist before the universe?

How do you know this? Has God explained it to you? How can you, presumably a mere creature of the creator, claim to know the will of that creator? What authority could you possibly hope to achieve as a human, in order to be privy to his counsel?

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  This proposed universe can be massive and stretch across time itself along with the mass of the rock or the size of a football field or even smaller if you like. Idea

"proposed universe"? What? Still waiting on approval from corporate? When did you submit this plan to God? Are we discussing the universe as you literally think it exists, or is this merely a fiction you invented for the benefit of this thread?

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  stretch across time itself

If this "big rock" stretched across time itself, does that mean the concept of time also existed prior to the creation of the rock, or the universe? If so, how can time exist outside of the universe?

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  can be massive and stretch across time itself along with the mass of the rock or the size of a football field or even smaller if you like.

Wait a minute, what about..

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  God makes a universe...whose mass fills every bit of its space.

So, the universe has a fixed amount of space, but can be massive or tiny? If an object is one size, it doesn't take the day off randomly to become a completely different size, with a different mass. Your universe is malfunctioning.

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  or even smaller if you like

Am I to understand, that the universe will actually adjust its very structure, merely because I contrive to imagine it smaller than a football field? Is there a danger of causing it to cease to exist if I imagine that it is not there at all? As it turns out, I am God. Fear me.

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Now since there is nowhere to go for the rock, God must move the whole universe inside its dimension to "lift the rock".

Wait a moment. If god creates the "big rock" universe, isn't he also responsible for creating it's "dimension". Did its dimension exist prior to the rock as well? For god's own sake, there seems to be an awful lot of stuff available for crafting before the universe began.

If the "rock" is free floating in the space that existed before the "rock", why would it have "nowhere to go"? Wouldn't it technically have an infinite number of directions to go, way out there in the nothingness outside the universe? What is restricting its motion?

So essentially what you are telling us is that god created the "big rock" universe, but then managed to create it in the wrong location? If he is all knowing, why did he not foresee this problem? Would it have been too much of a drain on his LIMITLESS power to create it in the location, or "dimension" that he intended for it to occupy?

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  He has made a rock so massive He cannot lift it in space

How can a God of LIMITLESS power fail to move a rock, regardless of its size? Either his power is limited, or it is not. You seem to have faith, but little confidence in God's actual strength. Am I once again to conclude that he did not manage to foresee this paradox either? God, God seems to get himself into a lot of divine jams!

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  although He can move it by moving the universe through a continuum outside the space/time of that universe.

Ahh... I see God cannot move the universe... but never fear..

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  He can move it by moving the universe...

Surely this will come in handy the next time I cannot do something. I just have to remember to do it, despite my inability.

Also, would that happen to be the same "space/time" that managed to exist outside of the original creation to begin with?

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  He has made a rock He both can "lift" and cannot "lift" and He can do both actions at the same time by moving the whole universe--and that is awesome.

The main question that comes to mind for me is, why is this a valuable use of God's pre-creation existing time? All this effort merely to move the universe from one meaningless location among the nothingness of the outside of the universe, to another. Neither the inhabitants of the universe, nor God, seem to have any benefit. Why God, why!?

This is awesome like a moving an entire grocery store from one location to another, with my bare hands, is awesome. Oh, did I mention I would be doing that for no reason, and no benefit for anyone? I am such a great person.

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  The real question is can God do something illogical such as violate Newtonian principles in our universe?

Oh good... I was waiting for the "real question". That other business was starting to really bum me out.

Hmm... Can God violate the rules he supposedly created. Of course. Whats the point of being the boss if you can't scrap a few rules around the office now and again? Besides, he already moved a universe in order to solve the problem of not being able to move it. He's had a rough day.

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  And the real rock is Jesus Christ. You and I cannot lift Him, He was lifted above the Earth for our sin. He rose so trusting Him we receive eternal life.

So, the "big rock" which is the universe, which was moved by God for no good reason, IS God? So he created the universe, which was actually himself, than he moved himself impossibly. Than he sat down to explain the Trinity to himself, Jesus Christ God really is everywhere!

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  If you stumble over the rock, you will be saved. If the rock falls upon you, you will be crushed.

For those of you who wish to be saved, never fear. You must only manage to trip over the entire universe. Oh by the way, its actually God. You have to trip over God.

For the rest of us, we will just have to hope (I will not say "pray") that God does not suddenly collapse upon us. Or that, the universe, doesn't do that. Bad day for us that.

(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Again just so we're clear, checkmate. Drinking Beverage


I see "checkmate Atheists" an awful lot around the internet. I have never seen a single thing that actually succeeded in checkmating Atheists on their arguments. If such a thing existed, we would have bowed to the evidence, and wouldn't be Atheists anymore.

If I were you, the religious community, I would save this phrase for when you actually do just that. A solid "Checkmate Bitch" would go a long way for morale on the day you actually win, instead of just pretending to have valid arguments.

Besides, comparing this argument to chess implies that we have the same number of pieces on either side of an equal battleground. The argument is nowhere near that balanced.

Lets be honest about the level of thought involved here.

Go Fish.

Religion is the sigh of the oppressed creature, the heart of a heartless world, just as it is the spirit of a spiritless situation. The abolition of religion as the illusory happiness of the people is required for their real happiness.

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25-11-2013, 04:12 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 03:36 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fair enough.

But, like Impulse pointed out.

We're not talking about math.

If you mention a thing like "infinite", you, uh... you pretty much are.

Necessarily so.

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25-11-2013, 04:17 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 02:59 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  would draw thousands of people to come ask my about the sign.

Seriously, Trinity Church is worth a visit for insight into everything from National Treasure to 9/11.

I KNEW he was into astrology. Makes as much sense as "fulfilled prophesy".
"Hey Pleasy, what's your sign ?"
(Isn't that like the oldest pick-up line in the book ?)

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Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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25-11-2013, 04:27 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2013 04:46 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 01:53 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I think I finally unmasked PJ, and his public preaching.
This is by Trinity Church in downtown NYC. PJ, is that you?

Consider

And here he is at Denver Pridefest!

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Damn, but he gets around!

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25-11-2013, 05:14 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 04:12 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 03:36 PM)kingschosen Wrote:  Fair enough.

But, like Impulse pointed out.

We're not talking about math.

If you mention a thing like "infinite", you, uh... you pretty much are.

Necessarily so.

Space, time, creativity, abilities, knowledge... there are probably an infinite amount of things that can be spoken of in terms of infinity. Some would be mathematical and some would not. Now, if you are talking about measuring something to determine whether it is infinite, that would always be mathematical. But things do not have to be measured in order to exist. And things do not have to be mathematical in order to be infinite.

Infinite simply means "without limits" and there are all sorts of things that can conceptually be without limits besides just mathematical concepts. Size, distance, amount of energy - all mathematical. But how about intelligence or creativity? Not so much.

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25-11-2013, 05:37 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 05:14 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Space, time, creativity, abilities, knowledge... there are probably an infinite amount of things that can be spoken of in terms of infinity.

Yes, but can they be spoken of coherently in terms of infinity?

(25-11-2013 05:14 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Some would be mathematical and some would not. Now, if you are talking about measuring something to determine whether it is infinite, that would always be mathematical. But things do not have to be measured in order to exist. And things do not have to be mathematical in order to be infinite.

Infinite simply means "without limits" and there are all sorts of things that can conceptually be without limits besides just mathematical concepts. Size, distance, amount of energy - all mathematical. But how about intelligence or creativity? Not so much.

Eh. I'd disagree. Even to assert infinity is to implicitly recognize some sort of cardinality. Or else it's meaningless.

Infinity is a number. Numbers are mathematical. If the implications of calling something infinite are problematic, don't call it infinite.

I do see that it's problematic in the sense that in colloquial English we say things like that, but that's very fuzzy and ambiguous - and surely ought to be avoided in a philosophical discussion, no?

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25-11-2013, 07:45 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 05:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Yes, but can they be spoken of coherently in terms of infinity?
I don't see why not.

(25-11-2013 05:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Eh. I'd disagree. Even to assert infinity is to implicitly recognize some sort of cardinality. Or else it's meaningless.
Again, only if you want to measure it. Why is "without limit" meaningless? It seems pretty clear to me.

(25-11-2013 05:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I do see that it's problematic in the sense that in colloquial English we say things like that, but that's very fuzzy and ambiguous - and surely ought to be avoided in a philosophical discussion, no?
Hell no. You don't honestly think that when theists say their god is "infinite", they are thinking mathematically, do you? Consider I think it's the mathematical that should be avoided not only for that reason (this being a god-related discussion), but also because the mathematical view of infinity puts limits on what infinity can be and it is then applied in a discussion about a being that is supposed to have no limits at all.

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25-11-2013, 08:24 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
That's very good PJ
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25-11-2013, 09:15 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 07:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 05:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  Eh. I'd disagree. Even to assert infinity is to implicitly recognize some sort of cardinality. Or else it's meaningless.
Again, only if you want to measure it. Why is "without limit" meaningless? It seems pretty clear to me.

Because "without limit" means an infinite set and that isn't specific enough.

You're speaking very lazily about a sort of necessarily-indefinite infinite-but-not-knowable concept (or rather, imputing such a conception to theists who haven't thought things through)... It's not coherent. End of story.

(25-11-2013 07:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 05:37 PM)cjlr Wrote:  I do see that it's problematic in the sense that in colloquial English we say things like that, but that's very fuzzy and ambiguous - and surely ought to be avoided in a philosophical discussion, no?
Hell no. You don't honestly think that when theists say their god is "infinite", they are thinking mathematically, do you?

They're not, but they should be. Well, so long as they're trying to make a cogent statement.

If you're just going to fall back on "it's unknowable, so never you mind", the just go immediately to "it's unknowable, so never you mind". Calling something infinite (which, again, has precise meaning) and then being unable to substantiate or articulate that meaning makes it meaningless.

(25-11-2013 07:45 PM)Impulse Wrote:  Consider I think it's the mathematical that should be avoided not only for that reason (this being a god-related discussion), but also because the mathematical view of infinity puts limits on what infinity can be and it is then applied in a discussion about a being that is supposed to have no limits at all.

"No limits".

If that is to make any sense then it can only mean merely infinite (which is not specific enough to be of any use - there are infinitely many infinities).

If you're attempting to mean the most infinite of infinities, or an infinity which cannot be compared to other infinities, well, that's not a thing.

I can't just say "God has two hands, BUT NOT IN A MATHEMATICAL WAY; therefore asking if God could give Himself three hands doesn't make sense because IT'S ALL INEFFABLE, MAN".

Well, clearly I can ( Rolleyes ), but it means nothing.

Or maybe God keeps "incomparable infinity" in a box with His "square circles" and His "Helium atoms with one proton"...

I can accept if someone says they have personal subjective experience of the unknowable. That's not compelling in any way to anyone else, but, eh, live and let live.

But if you're describing something in a definite way, you need to understand the claim you're making and be able to communicate its meaning to someone else. If the claim is not coherent then it means nothing to anybody. It certainly doesn't tell me anything to make statements like "God's infinity doesn't have cardinality because JUST BECAUSE, OKAY"; anyone who does say such a thing does not understand what they are talking about. No subsequent discussion is possible.

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