A Rock So Heavy
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25-11-2013, 09:57 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
Really not sure the nuances of "infinity" are all that germane to a discussion of the absurdity of the claim of "omnipotence". Seems to just muddy the waters and allow KC and PJ to quietly escape without admitting their assertions and arguments have been roundly beaten.

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25-11-2013, 09:58 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 09:57 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Really not sure the nuances of "infinity" are all that germane to a discussion of the absurdity of the claim of "omnipotence". Seems to just muddy the waters and allow KC and PJ to quietly escape without admitting their assertions and arguments have been roundly beaten.

Because that's how omnipotence is generally defined? As infinite ability/power?

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25-11-2013, 10:25 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 09:58 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 09:57 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Really not sure the nuances of "infinity" are all that germane to a discussion of the absurdity of the claim of "omnipotence". Seems to just muddy the waters and allow KC and PJ to quietly escape without admitting their assertions and arguments have been roundly beaten.

Because that's how omnipotence is generally defined? As infinite ability/power?

Websters:

om·nip·o·tent
adjective \äm-ˈni-pə-tənt\

: having complete or unlimited power

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25-11-2013, 10:30 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
This belongs in this discussion.

Are you listening, KC?

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25-11-2013, 10:36 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 10:25 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Websters:

om·nip·o·tent
adjective \äm-ˈni-pə-tənt\

: having complete or unlimited power

Which is sure as heck not good enough for philosophy.

Because "unlimited" doesn't mean anything absent further context.

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25-11-2013, 11:33 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2013 11:37 PM by Elesjei.)
RE: A Rock So Heavy
If you describe something as limited or unlimited, you're quantifying it. A limit is how great x can be; size, intelligence, strength... You're attaching a value to it. If you say something is without limit, then you're just saying that x is equal to infinity.

In the example of infinite strength;
We'll call strength a, and mass b

If an object is too heavy to lift, a < b
If an object can be lifted, a > b
Whether the object can or cannot be lifted, a != b
But if strength and mass are unlimited, a = b

When one says a god can have unlimited strength and create an object he can't lift, one is giving values to both strength and mass (∞). A value cannot be both greater than and less than another value. Again, the ability to "do anything" does not extend to things that are logical contradictions.

There is no way to escape the math. If you describe something as unlimited, you're still giving it a value.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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25-11-2013, 11:41 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 10:36 PM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 10:25 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  Websters:

om·nip·o·tent
adjective \äm-ˈni-pə-tənt\

: having complete or unlimited power

Which is sure as heck not good enough for philosophy.

It's good enough for me. Philosophy is just so much mental masturbation.

Quote:Because "unlimited" doesn't mean anything absent further context.

Webster's says it means something:

un·lim·it·ed
adjective \-ˈli-mə-təd\

: without any limits or restrictions

: not limited in number or amount

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25-11-2013, 11:45 PM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2013 11:52 PM by Taqiyya Mockingbird.)
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:33 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  If you describe something as limited or unlimited, you're quantifying it.

I don't think that's true.

quantify (Websters):

1
a (1) : to limit by a quantifier (2) : to bind by prefixing a quantifier


Perhaps if you describe something as LIMITED, you are quantifying it. But not when you describe it as unlimited.

Quote:A limit is how great x can be; size, intelligence, strength... You're attaching a value to it. If you say something is without limit, then you're just saying that x is equal to infinity.

In the example of infinite strength;
We'll call strength a, and mass b

If an object is too heavy to lift, a < b
If an object can be lifted, a > b
Whether the object can or cannot be lifted, a != b
But if strength and mass are unlimited, a = b

When one says a god can have unlimited strength and create an object he can't lift, one is giving values to both strength and mass (∞). A value cannot be both greater than and less than another value. Again, the ability to "do anything" does not extend to things that are logical contradictions.

There is no way to escape the math. If you describe something as unlimited, you're still giving it a value.

You are seriously over-thinking this.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


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25-11-2013, 11:48 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:45 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You are seriously overthinking this.

I say we haven't thought about it enough.
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25-11-2013, 11:55 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:48 PM)DemonicLemon Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 11:45 PM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  You are seriously overthinking this.

I say we haven't thought about it enough.

Based upon what reasoning?

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