A Rock So Heavy
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26-11-2013, 09:57 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 09:37 AM)Impulse Wrote:  The problem is you're getting stuck on mathematical infinities. And that's understandable considering 1) the term originated from math, and 2) applying it to a god is nonsensical. But, my original point was, when discussing this with theists, they aren't thinking about infinity in the mathematical sense and, therefore, there aren't multiple infinities in that context. They simply mean without any limits, even if they haven't clearly thought about what the truly means.

So are so much more clear and concise on this subject than me. Thank you.

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26-11-2013, 10:03 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 09:57 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  So are so much more clear and concise on this subject than me. Thank you.

Don't you mean, thank you for helping me to avoid confronting my cognitive dissonance? Angel

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26-11-2013, 10:11 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 10:03 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 09:57 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  So are so much more clear and concise on this subject than me. Thank you.

Don't you mean, thank you for helping me to avoid confronting my cognitive dissonance? Angel

Oh you.

But no... if anything, it proved more semantics as this argument drifted into the definition of "infinities".

I understand there are more than one definitions, but there isn't more than one definition in how it's being used to describe God as Impulse so eloquently pointed out.

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26-11-2013, 11:06 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 10:03 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  Don't you mean, thank you for helping me to avoid confronting my cognitive dissonance? Angel

Oh you.

But no... if anything, it proved more semantics as this argument drifted into the definition of "infinities".

I understand there are more than one definitions, but there isn't more than one definition in how it's being used to describe God as Impulse so eloquently pointed out.

Oh, you. Hug

As a natural born mathematician, of course I'm going to be stuck on stupid as fa as that's concerned. But what I'm not understanding I how I that any kind of helpful. It's a big ol' circular reasoning of unreason. What is God? Well, omnipotent. What is omnipotent? Well, God. What is the context of each outside of each other? Well... Hobo

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26-11-2013, 11:13 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 11:06 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 10:11 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Oh you.

But no... if anything, it proved more semantics as this argument drifted into the definition of "infinities".

I understand there are more than one definitions, but there isn't more than one definition in how it's being used to describe God as Impulse so eloquently pointed out.

Oh, you. Hug

As a natural born mathematician, of course I'm going to be stuck on stupid as fa as that's concerned. But what I'm not understanding I how I that any kind of helpful. It's a big ol' circular reasoning of unreason. What is God? Well, omnipotent. What is omnipotent? Well, God. What is the context of each outside of each other? Well... Hobo

Didn't I say it was circular reasoning?

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26-11-2013, 11:32 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 11:13 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Didn't I say it was circular reasoning?

Sure. Yet this...

(25-11-2013 11:36 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  How can this be? I have no idea. The circle reasoning isn't rationale in our limited realm.

I've also gotten flak for saying that circular reasoning is permissible when talking about multiple infinities acting together (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence), but I still stand by it because it's the only way to explain these three concept amalgamated into one being.

The simple fact of the matter is that these infinities are inherently paradoxes and are not rationale in our understandings.

...kinda implies that you see something reasonable in it.

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26-11-2013, 12:40 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  
(26-11-2013 12:15 AM)Taqiyya Mockingbird Wrote:  fixed!

Insulting our ancestors is saying we moderns are the progeny of the ignorant.

So what? You aren't even saying anything, and your statement is loaded with all kind of stupid assumptions.

Quote: The "iron age goatherders" of Mesopotamia and elsewhere did things we're still debating today as to how they accomplished them!
Okay, maybe, but how interesting is finding new and creative ways to fuck a goat, really?

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27-11-2013, 09:10 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 12:08 AM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  All I'm going to say is that the problem with infinities is, there are different sized infinities. So labeling anything as infinite is not that helpful. An infinite set of prime numbers is smaller than an infinite set of whole numbers, but both are infinite. Likewise a god capable of infinite logical actions is capable of less than one who is able to perform logically impossible actions as well; his infinite set is larger.

Infinities are weird. So how many people here are math majors with a firm grasp on set theory? Who thinks the Biblical authors had a firm grasp on set theory? Yeah, I didn't think so...

http://skullsinthestars.com/2013/11/14/i...-infinity/

Um, no. The set of prime numbers is exactly the same size as the set of whole numbers.

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27-11-2013, 12:17 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 09:37 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Specific enough, for what? Discussion? Then maybe so.

Yes Tongue.

(26-11-2013 09:37 AM)Impulse Wrote:  But infinity, by its very nature as theists attempt to use it, can't be made more specific because it is without limits.

And that way of using it is meaningless.

(26-11-2013 09:37 AM)Impulse Wrote:  I agree theists haven't thought things through. I agree, the whole notion of an infinite being is ridiculous. But the concept of infinity as theists wish to apply it to their god, is clear even if ridiculous.

I don't think it is.

I think it's just a learned phrase. It's rote. "God is infinite". It has "meaning" only when repeated to someone else who's internalised it. And that's just affirming a stock phrase...

(26-11-2013 09:37 AM)Impulse Wrote:  It essentially amount to everything since it is without limits. I disagree that there are multiple conceptual meanings of infinity.

Infinity means "not finite". So far, so good. But say we have two infinite things. Can we compare them? This follows inevitably should one think about it (God is infinite -> God is capable of infinite creation -> well, shucks, now we have two infinities). And I agree with you that theists don't generally go there (the ol' "shove it under the rug and ignore the lumps when you walk across the room" tactic).

(26-11-2013 09:37 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Anything less than "everything" (and more precisely, infinitely more than everything and infinitely less than nothing), isn't infinity.

... and there are different kinds of "everything".

But all they really mean is "incomparable" (and very much in the NEVER YOU MIND sense). Which isn't the same thing at all.

(26-11-2013 09:37 AM)Impulse Wrote:  The problem is you're getting stuck on mathematical infinities. And that's understandable considering 1) the term originated from math, and 2) applying it to a god is nonsensical. But, my original point was, when discussing this with theists, they aren't thinking about infinity in the mathematical sense and, therefore, there aren't multiple infinities in that context. They simply mean without any limits, even if they haven't clearly thought about what the truly means.

No, that I understand, but the consequence of that is that they're not making sense.

If you can give an actual coherent definition, that's the only sense in which there is meaning. It's a stock affirmation otherwise; something people say because that's just a phrase they learned. It means nothing to me to hear someone say it. It means nothing to them, for that matter. They're okay with that. I'm not.

And so the only "discussion" is, "I have personal subjective experience of the ineffable but I can't possibly express it to you".

Which isn't a discussion.

(and then the follow-up is, "you can have the same personal subjective experience if you try hard enough", which includes its own rock-solid get out clause, "if it doesn't work clearly you didn't try hard enough)

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30-11-2013, 08:47 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(26-11-2013 07:47 AM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  Insulting our ancestors is saying we moderns are the progeny of the ignorant. The "iron age goatherders" of Mesopotamia and elsewhere did things we're still debating today as to how they accomplished them!
Well they did kill babies,innocent children,helpless women without a shadow of a guilt in the NAME OF GOD.

Witch burning ? which sounds awfully similar to "Sati burning" in my country.

YES they are nasty Goat herders,YES they are human trash and they deserve every bit of our contempt for deluding men into doing horrible stuff.
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