A Rock So Heavy
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 1 Votes - 1 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
25-11-2013, 11:09 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:04 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 10:50 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The GRP is nothing more than a semantics game.

The answer to the GRP is it "cannot be". And no, just because you can ask the question doesn't make it a legitimate question.

The whole concept of the GRP is creating a paradox on omnipotence. The clever thing of the GRP is it creates misdirection and people usually fail to see its obvious flaw; instead, they argue it when the question is invalid to begin with.

What the GRP does is redefine omnipotence. It presumes limits and questions omnipotence with those limits. You can't redefine omnipotence in order to have a paradox.

But that isn't so. The concept of omnipotence is not well-defined.

Can an omnipotent entity create something greater than itself - that's really the question here. (the trivial case is of an omnipotent entity limiting itself - that is necessarily possible, whatever one's definition of omnipotence)

"No, because no" isn't a very satisfactory answer.

(25-11-2013 10:50 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Omnipotence is infinite power - no limits. The GRP presents limits on omnipotence.

It just simply cannot be. If something is without limits, then it is without limits. The question is completely invalid because it's making omnipotence something that it isn't.

The GRP can only exist if omnipotence is limited. So, it changes the rules and expects people to play by them.

Ah - 'infinite'. There's the rub.

All infinities are infinite, but some are more infinite than others.

Of what sort is the 'infinite' ability attributed to an 'omnipotent' entity?

As per the understanding of Christian theology, God's omnipotence is defined as "without limits, infinite".

That's the whole problem with anything infinite, though. In our reality, everything has limits. There is no infinity.

"No because no" is a legit answer... it may not be satisfactory, but it is the correct answer.

You cannot limit infinite. Any attempt to limit it becomes invalid.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-11-2013, 11:25 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  As per the understanding of Christian theology, God's omnipotence is defined as "without limits, infinite".

That's the whole problem with anything infinite, though. In our reality, everything has limits. There is no infinity.

No, the problem is that to say "infinite" one must clarify what sense one means by "infinite".

There are multiple ways to take its meaning.

Infinity is a well-defined concept but it is not a singularly well-defined concept.

(25-11-2013 11:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  "No because no" is a legit answer... it may not be satisfactory, but it is the correct answer.

You cannot limit infinite. Any attempt to limit it becomes invalid.

Does infinite ability include the ability to be self-limiting? Can infinite ability create something of greater ability?

One infinity can most assuredly be greater than another, notwithstanding the infinity of both.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like cjlr's post
25-11-2013, 11:36 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:25 AM)cjlr Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 11:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  As per the understanding of Christian theology, God's omnipotence is defined as "without limits, infinite".

That's the whole problem with anything infinite, though. In our reality, everything has limits. There is no infinity.

No, the problem is that to say "infinite" one must clarify what sense one means by "infinite".

There are multiple ways to take its meaning.

Infinity is a well-defined concept but it is not a singularly well-defined concept.

(25-11-2013 11:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  "No because no" is a legit answer... it may not be satisfactory, but it is the correct answer.

You cannot limit infinite. Any attempt to limit it becomes invalid.

Does infinite ability include the ability to be self-limiting? Can infinite ability create something of greater ability?

One infinity can most assuredly be greater than another, notwithstanding the infinity of both.

You're not going to like the answer because it is circular reasoning and nebulous... but...

That question is invalid as well. Not only is God (per Christian theology) omnipotent, but He's also omniscient. In that, He knows all, so any question about Him limiting Himself is invalid because He already knew what He was going to decided and everything to infinity.

So, even if there was a concept of Him changing His mind or limiting Himself, it wouldn't have happened because He already made that decision because that was the original decision.

Again, it's the concept of creating limits for something that's unlimited.

How can this be? I have no idea. The circle reasoning isn't rationale in our limited realm.

I've also gotten flak for saying that circular reasoning is permissible when talking about multiple infinities acting together (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence), but I still stand by it because it's the only way to explain these three concept amalgamated into one being.

The simple fact of the matter is that these infinities are inherently paradoxes and are not rationale in our understandings.

[Image: dog-shaking.gif]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-11-2013, 11:38 AM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:36 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 11:25 AM)cjlr Wrote:  No, the problem is that to say "infinite" one must clarify what sense one means by "infinite".

There are multiple ways to take its meaning.

Infinity is a well-defined concept but it is not a singularly well-defined concept.


Does infinite ability include the ability to be self-limiting? Can infinite ability create something of greater ability?

One infinity can most assuredly be greater than another, notwithstanding the infinity of both.

You're not going to like the answer because it is circular reasoning and nebulous... but...

That question is invalid as well. Not only is God (per Christian theology) omnipotent, but He's also omniscient. In that, He knows all, so any question about Him limiting Himself is invalid because He already knew what He was going to decided and everything to infinity.

So, even if there was a concept of Him changing His mind or limiting Himself, it wouldn't have happened because He already made that decision because that was the original decision.

Again, it's the concept of creating limits for something that's unlimited.

How can this be? I have no idea. The circle reasoning isn't rationale in our limited realm.

I've also gotten flak for saying that circular reasoning is permissible when talking about multiple infinities acting together (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence), but I still stand by it because it's the only way to explain these three concept amalgamated into one being.

The simple fact of the matter is that these infinities are inherently paradoxes and are not rationale in our understandings.

The question is absurd and uninteresting.

The resolution of the circular argument is to step off the merry-go-round.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
[Image: flagstiny%206.gif]
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 5 users Like Chas's post
25-11-2013, 11:39 AM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2013 11:43 AM by Impulse.)
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:25 AM)cjlr Wrote:  No, the problem is that to say "infinite" one must clarify what sense one means by "infinite".

There are multiple ways to take its meaning.

Infinity is a well-defined concept but it is not a singularly well-defined concept.
Infinity is without bounds and is endless. Any variation of that necessarily put some limits and then isn't infinity.

(25-11-2013 11:25 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Does infinite ability include the ability to be self-limiting?
Yes, because again, imposing limits on infinity isn't infinity.

Now don't ask me how an infinite being can both self-limit and still be an infinite being. My limited human mind cannot explain that. Wink But it would probably be along the lines of an infinite being could also defy logic.

Of course, no such being really exists - the proof is in how stupid all that just sounded. Drinking Beverage

Edit:
After rereading, I thought I should clarify that I was referring to my own post when I said how stupid it sounded.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Impulse's post
25-11-2013, 11:40 AM (This post was last modified: 25-11-2013 12:35 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(22-11-2013 02:50 PM)PleaseJesus Wrote:  God makes a universe with a big rock in it whose mass fills every bit of its space. This proposed universe can be massive and stretch across time itself along with the mass of the rock or the size of a football field or even smaller if you like. Idea

Now since there is nowhere to go for the rock, God must move the whole universe inside its dimension to "lift the rock".

He has made a rock so massive He cannot lift it in space, although He can move it by moving the universe through a continuum outside the space/time of that universe. He has made a rock He both can "lift" and cannot "lift" and He can do both actions at the same time by moving the whole universe--and that is awesome. Checkmate, atheists!

The real question is can God do something illogical such as violate Newtonian principles in our universe?

And the real rock is Jesus Christ. You and I cannot lift Him, He was lifted above the Earth for our sin. He rose so trusting Him we receive eternal life.

If you stumble over the rock, you will be saved. If the rock falls upon you, you will be crushed.

Again just so we're clear, checkmate. Drinking Beverage

So solly fellas. The density of that rock would be SO massive, it would instantly become a Black Hole. It exceeds the Schwarzschild radius.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schwarzschild_radius
You can stop at "god must". A deity which is subject to Reality, cannot be it's creator. Actually if a god "exists", it ALREADY is subject to Reality ... and "Houston, we have a problem." All sorts of "illogical" things are observed, thus the question is , a priori, irrelevant. It makes more sense to ask about the FSM's ability to actually burn the pasta, than this crapolla.

And just so we're clear, "Checkmate atheists" violates Bucky's Second Law. "You can be sure those who CLAIM checkmate, when the argument is obviously a "fail", are surely the loser". (Bucky's 2nd Law for Smarmy Fundies). Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Bucky Ball's post
25-11-2013, 12:02 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 10:50 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(23-11-2013 06:22 PM)Boysurroundedbymoms Wrote:  You act as if it has been solved, and is therefore not worth mentioning again. Has it been solved?

The only way it would be so infuriating is if it HASN'T been solved to your satisfaction (I.E God being Omnipotent) and you can't address the answers that logically come from it.

It has been solved.

Not in the way you would like it to be.

Quote: Much like the "theory" of evolution or the concept of no free will, there is definitive evidence for these.

The GRP is nothing more than a semantics game.

Incorrect. The GRP is Reductio Ad Absudum.

Quote:The answer to the GRP is it "cannot be". And no, just because you can ask the question doesn't make it a legitimate question.

Just as you can make an assertion -- such as the supposed infinite qualities of your fairytale deity -- doesn't make it a legitimate assertion.

[quoge]The whole concept of the GRP is creating a paradox on omnipotence. The clever thing of the GRP is it creates misdirection and people usually fail to see its obvious flaw; instead, they argue it when the question is invalid to begin with.[/quote]

Just because *you assert* that it's invalid, doesn't make it so.


Quote:What the GRP does is redefine omnipotence. [/quoe]

Not in the least.


[quote] It presumes limits and questions omnipotence with those limits. You can't redefine omnipotence in order to have a paradox.

Incorrect. It sets an absurd claim of infinite powers against itself, destroying it.


Quote:Omnipotence is infinite power - no limits. The GRP presents limits on omnipotence.

Nope. It tests the absurd and unsupported claim of "infinite power" and finds such claim wanting.

Quote:It just simply cannot be.

Yes, because your claim of infinite power is absurd, and GRP exposes this.

Quote: If something is without limits, then it is without limits.

If an absurd claim is unsupported, then it is unsupported. If you pull an absurd claim out of your ass, you pulled it out of your ass. Such are the claims of omnipotence, omniscience, etc.

Quote: The question is completely invalid because it's making omnipotence something that it isn't.

The question doesn't define omnipotence at all. Omnipotence is already defined, it TESTS that absurd claim.


Quote:The GRP can only exist if omnipotence is limited.

That is not true. GRP merely tests and exposes the fallacy of the CLAIM of omnipotence itself.


Quote: So, it changes the rules and expects people to play by them.

Absolutely not. It attacks the claim of omnipotence using its own rules.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-11-2013, 12:06 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:09 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 11:04 AM)cjlr Wrote:  But that isn't so. The concept of omnipotence is not well-defined.

Can an omnipotent entity create something greater than itself - that's really the question here. (the trivial case is of an omnipotent entity limiting itself - that is necessarily possible, whatever one's definition of omnipotence)

"No, because no" isn't a very satisfactory answer.


Ah - 'infinite'. There's the rub.

All infinities are infinite, but some are more infinite than others.

Of what sort is the 'infinite' ability attributed to an 'omnipotent' entity?

As per the understanding of Christian theology, God's omnipotence is defined as "without limits, infinite".

Yes, and that is asserted ad hoc, by fiat, and the GRP challenges and destroys that assertion out of hand.


Quote:That's the whole problem with anything infinite, though. In our reality, everything has limits. There is no infinity.

How about that -- thank you for admitting that your assertion of a deity with infinite powers is not reality.


Quote:"No because no" is a legit answer... it may not be satisfactory, but it is the correct answer.

Only for the credulous and willfully ignorant.

Quote:You cannot limit infinite. Any attempt to limit it becomes invalid.

GRP doesn't "limit infinite". It exposes the absurdity of the assertion of a being with "infinite powers".

You are strawmanning GRP. You are now being called for strawmanning GRP. Either quit strawmanning, or admit that you are being disingenuous and intellectually dishonest.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
25-11-2013, 12:09 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:36 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You're not going to like the answer because it is circular reasoning and nebulous... but...

Well, it is religion.

Drinking Beverage

(25-11-2013 11:36 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  That question is invalid as well. Not only is God (per Christian theology) omnipotent, but He's also omniscient. In that, He knows all, so any question about Him limiting Himself is invalid because He already knew what He was going to decided and everything to infinity.

That's not coherent. Limits are not the keyword. Infinity is.

(25-11-2013 11:36 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  So, even if there was a concept of Him changing His mind or limiting Himself, it wouldn't have happened because He already made that decision because that was the original decision.

Sure. Not relevant...

(25-11-2013 11:36 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  Again, it's the concept of creating limits for something that's unlimited.

No. This has nothing to do with limits. It has to do with the nature of infinity and ability.

(25-11-2013 11:36 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  How can this be? I have no idea. The circle reasoning isn't rationale in our limited realm.

I've also gotten flak for saying that circular reasoning is permissible when talking about multiple infinities acting together (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence), but I still stand by it because it's the only way to explain these three concept amalgamated into one being.

Then it does not make sense for you to claim a God with those aspects.

They are meaningless.

If the qualities attributed to God are such that you are unable to explain or even comprehend them, then it is entirely pointless even to suggest them. It is an incoherent statement. It tells me nothing about the nature of God. It tells you nothing about the nature of God. It does not increase anybody's understanding of anything.

(25-11-2013 11:36 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  The simple fact of the matter is that these infinities are inherently paradoxes and are not rationale in our understandings.

Infinity is not paradoxical. It is a coherent mathematical concept. It is paradoxical if you refuse to specify in what sense you are using the word, or indeed if you propose an incoherent modification of it.

You can't just say 'infinity'. That is ambiguous. If you actually know what you're talking about then you will be able to explain what you mean.

... this is my signature!
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like cjlr's post
25-11-2013, 12:16 PM
RE: A Rock So Heavy
(25-11-2013 11:36 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(25-11-2013 11:25 AM)cjlr Wrote:  No, the problem is that to say "infinite" one must clarify what sense one means by "infinite".

There are multiple ways to take its meaning.

Infinity is a well-defined concept but it is not a singularly well-defined concept.


Does infinite ability include the ability to be self-limiting? Can infinite ability create something of greater ability?

One infinity can most assuredly be greater than another, notwithstanding the infinity of both.

You're not going to like the answer because it is circular reasoning and nebulous... but...

I *like* it because it *is* circular and nebulous, and thank you for admitting that you are trying to play a shell game.


Quote:That question is invalid as well.

That is simply an ad hoc assertion. Just because you say it doesn't make it true.

Quote: Not only is God (per Christian theology) omnipotent, but He's also omniscient. In that, He knows all, so any question about Him limiting Himself is invalid because He already knew what He was going to decided and everything to infinity.

Would you like some bullshit dressing with your word salad?


Quote:So, even if there was a concept of Him changing His mind or limiting Himself, it wouldn't have happened because He already made that decision because that was the original decision.

Again, the question exposes the absurdity of your claim. Run away from the question and you necessarily run away from your claim.

Quote:Again, it's the concept of creating limits for something that's unlimited.

It's exposing the absurdity of a claim of being unlimited.

Quote:How can this be? I have no idea.

Thank you for admitting that your reasoning is faulty. Time to shitcan the claim of omnipotence. That is, if you have an iota of intellectual honesty.

Quote:The circle reasoning isn't rationale in our limited realm.

"...our limited realm...?" Shell game much?

Quote:I've also gotten flak for saying that circular reasoning is permissible when talking about multiple infinities acting together (omnipotence, omniscience, omnipresence), but I still stand by it because it's the only way to explain these three concept amalgamated into one being.

In other words, you HAVE to fall back to a Special Pleading Fallacy in your desperation to keep from admitting that your assertion and arguments have been defeated. This is intellectual dishonesty.


Quote:The simple fact of the matter is that these infinities are inherently paradoxes and are not rationale in our understandings.

The simple fact of the matter is that you refuse to admit that your assertions and arguments have been handily and easily destroyed.

It's Special Pleadings all the way down!


Magic Talking Snakes STFU -- revenantx77


You can't have your special pleading and eat it too. -- WillHop
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: