A Serious Threat to World Peace
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10-10-2011, 02:00 PM
A Serious Threat to World Peace
Aborians around the world are up in arms over a Rockian Priest in Florida who is threatening to cut down the pine trees in his front yard and burn them in effigy. Aborians believe that the souls of their departed ancestors dwell in the pine tree. To in any way harm or endanger a pine tree is considered blasphemy and in some countries punishable by death. The President himself has called for restraint and the need to respect the beliefs of others in an attempt to press for calm.
Senior Aborian Priest Oakwood Howdairu has issued a warning that any such deliberate and provocative threat to harm a pine tree will be met with the intentional busting up of boulders in his country. The response from the Rockians has been to claim free speech rights and counter the Aborian threats with the promise of more destruction of pine trees to follow any damage to rocks.
Riots broke out in the streets of Elmshure during a peaceful rally in a show of unity of Aborian religious views. It seems that this issue will not go away easily.
In a related story, the US is holding peace talks with Igneous regarding the creation of an Aborian state inside its’ borders. The main dispute is over a 12 foot by 12 foot area where Aborians claim the first tree sprouted to life after the death of the first man to walk the earth. The Rockians believe that the same place was where the profit Rockmahan was told by God through a burning rock that his descendents would inherit the lands as far as he could see in any direction. Politically, giving up land believed to have been given to them by God is not going to be easy for the Igneous ruling council.
STOP!
If you think this story is just plain stupid tell that to the Christians, Muslims and Jews who are killing each other over much less than stated above. The belief in unsubstantiated supernatural mythology to the point of killing innocent people is absolutely unacceptable. We cannot tolerate religious beliefs on the whole just because they only lead to a few atrocities from time to time. Enough is enough and it’s time to move on to the next phase of human social development, a world without superstition and stupidity.
Religion is a serious threat to world peace.
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10-10-2011, 07:12 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
I agree and welcome to the Forum busy Thomas.

I was talking about this just the other day actually which is weird for me because I never talk about religion.... Smile In reality even if all of the politicians came to a consensus on how to run the world religion would still stand in the way of that. Every one of the big religions minus Buddhism speaks about killing all followers of any other god than their own, and since non of them want to agree that they all follow the same made up god, that means everyone is fair game. So they will all be standing there going, "Oh well it's great we figured out all of that politics bullshit, I was tired of arguing about it." "yeah me too, boring right?" "yeah, now we can get down to you guys converting to our religion so that we don't have to smite you." "I was just about to say the same thing" kill kill die die.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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10-10-2011, 08:10 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
Hey, Thomas.

There's a flaw with your comparison. Your first story, I would assume, refers to the Qur'an burning attempt by that guy in Florida. Here's the issue. This story makes it seem like people are doing this stuff just cuz. The United States, for the last 20 years+ has been butchering Arabs the world over by the hundreds of thousands. And not just healthy men either. As many as a half a million children pre, yes, pre-2003 invasion of Iraq. Now if you've been butchered and degraded and sanctioned and occupied for that long and then some douche in the US tells you that he's going to burn the one thing that is most sacred to you, you might get a little miffed.

I think the greatest threat to world peace is this notion that there is no such thing as history. A lot of things happened before 9/11. A lot. And it all contributed to that day and everything that has come since. The notion that, what's a convenient scapegoat, say, Islam is responsible for everything because it's Islam is infantile and, more to the point, extremely dangerous. The reason that this way of "thinking" is so dangerous is because it precludes peaceful resolution because it denies wrongdoing. It places the blame on one people and tells them that they have to stop, accept all terms unconditionally and make reparations and we will be kind enough to accept their surrender. But the world doesn't work like that.

None of this is to say that there are not issues, very serious issues, with religion. There are. But that doesn't excuse this kind of thinking.

Please understand that your post sparked a reaction to a mode of thinking. I am not dumping on you as a person. I am just dumping on a world view.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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11-10-2011, 12:11 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2011 12:22 PM by Thomas.)
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
Good points, but you are simply way off base with your interpretation.

My silly story was not about Islam, more about irrational belief in supernatural BS to the point of blowing up the planet to prove that your religion is the only truth. "We'll see when Jesus comes back. He'll kick all the non-Christians to the curb."

What everyone should understand about Islam is that it was given birth by Christian and Jewish persecution of darker skinned people (Arabs and Africans).

Mohamed was reacting in 600AD to the fact that Arabs were told that they were cursed forever to serve their lighter skinned brothers in the Torah (Old Testament). Recall the curse of Ham and his son Canaan. Canaanites were the Arabs and the people that god told Abraham that his descendents could wholesale slaughter for their land. "The promised land" ...and they still fight over it.

We also took this much farther in America where 150 million people died over 400 years in the European invasion and let's not forget South Africa. Yes, I call the "settling of America" an "invasion" because you could not rationally define it any other way. No need to argue this point. We should accept reality where we see it. The American Holocaust dwarfs the Nazi Holocaust in duration and scale.

The three major religions are now poised and capable of total global destruction. You mentioned Iraq. We are there because Bush believes in the biblical story of revelation. He believed that we needed troops in Iraq and found an excuse to get them there. Read revelations.

I'm not a big fan of Mr. Obama, but at least he is an Atheist which I trust more to run the country than a Christian believer. At least he will use "some level" of rational judgment as opposed to blind belief in a myth. And once again you can thank Emperor Constantine and the early writers of the bible for continued death and destruction throughout the world.

How is this for an historical perspective?
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11-10-2011, 03:07 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2011 03:10 PM by Ghost.)
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
Hey, Thomas.

Quote:How is this for an historical perspective?

Poor.

I agree with you that the settling of America was genocidal, but I fail to see what that has to do with anything. The only thing I can think of, because you don't provide any links, is that religion is somehow responsible. I'll be the first to admit that religion had a direct hand, but the idea that imperial expansion and capitalism, even memetics, had nothing to do with it is revisionism, even if it's just a sin of omission.

Quote:The three major religions are now poised and capable of total global destruction.

That's not only a meaningless statement, but it's hyperbolic and just plain false.

As for Iraq, Bush's evangelism may very well be a part of why we're there, but so is:
-Paul Wolfowitz
-The attempted assassination of Bush senior
-The first Gulf War
-The fact that Bush senior, while head of the CIA, installed Saddam into power
-The fact that the CIA abandoned allies in an uprising post first Gulf war who were then butchered
-Oil
-Money
-Iran
-Strategic placement of US troops in the region
-And about a million other reasons.

This is exactly what I’m talking about. You’ve reduced the issue well beyond the point of any meaningful commentary. We aren’t in Iraq because of Bush’s evangelism any more than we’re both alive because of our superior vena cava.

Quote:My silly story was not about Islam, more about irrational belief in supernatural BS to the point of blowing up the planet to prove that your religion is the only truth.

The issue is with the notion that religion wants to blow up the planet because of religion and NOT because of any other factors whatsoever. This is a complex situation. That's the point I was making. Nothing exists in a vacuum.

As attractive as blaming people is, the greater danger comes from not recognising the complexity of the system.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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11-10-2011, 10:43 PM (This post was last modified: 11-10-2011 10:58 PM by Thomas.)
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
I don't believe we can separate human greed from religious doctrine. This is the argument many make about the founding of American. The copout is to claim that religion played no part and this was simply human corporate greed.

When the Catholic church invented purgatory and went around Europe asking poor farmers to pay a tribute so that the pope would pray to get their dead relatives released, was this just human corporate greed?

When we burned Native American tribal leaders at the stake for not converting to Christianity and then took over their land, was this just human corporate greed?

You see my friend, religion is just human corporate greed. This is a system of the rich taking from the poor based on getting the poor to believe in a supernatural being who likes his profits to be filthy rich. You see it today with TV evangelists. The past is documented plainly enough.

I recently went to one of the mega churches to hear a presentation on Islam. The entire program was set up to "warn" Christians of this "invasion". Was the pasture really trying to cause some devoted followers to go out and harm Muslims? Probably not, BUT I can tell you from listening to the rhetoric that it made the hair stand up on the back of my neck because I could see it happening.

Understand that the stakes are much higher now. They are not going to go after each other with swords on horseback. The planet is smaller and the weapons are larger. The next time all hell breaks lose they will take the rest of us with them. They believe they are going to an afterlife paradise. So what if the world ends. It's supposed to isn't it? Read revelations.

Answer the following:

Would the Israeli-Palestinian dispute over land be settled now if it were not for their respective religious views?
Could we not settle the abortion debate using reason and consensus if it were not for religious views?
Could we not settle the question of gay and lesbian acceptance/marriage if not for religious views?
Would women have equal rights to men if not for religious views?
Would we have a safer world if not for religious views?


Or:
Would we rather see women and homosexuals descriminated against and even killed for being born who they are?
Would we rather see the Israelis and Palestinians continue to kill each other over a 3000 year old religious feud?
Would we rather see abortion doctors shot while coming out of church in front of his wife and children?

Religion is on the wrong side of history, because the history it will write doesn't exist. That story ends human history. Just like the good book says.
44% of American Christians believe they will see the second coming of JC in their lifetime. That's not hyperbolic rhetoric, that's data and it's frightening.
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12-10-2011, 07:22 PM (This post was last modified: 12-10-2011 07:33 PM by Ghost.)
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
Hey, Thomas.

Quote:I don't believe we can separate human greed from religious doctrine.

I don't understand this. If to be greedy is to be human, then of course we can't separate it from religious doctrine... or from any other belief system for that matter?

Quote:The copout is to claim that religion played no part and this was simply human corporate greed.

Be that as it may, I never suggested religion played no part. My entire point is that there are multiple determinants.

Quote:You see my friend, religion is just human corporate greed.

Actually, I don't see. That doesn't make any sense to me.

Quote:I recently went to one of the mega churches to hear a presentation on Islam. The entire program was set up to "warn" Christians of this "invasion". Was the pasture really trying to cause some devoted followers to go out and harm Muslims? Probably not, BUT I can tell you from listening to the rhetoric that it made the hair stand up on the back of my neck because I could see it happening.

Ok. But I reiterate my critique. None of what you just described occurred in a vacuum.

Quote:Understand that the stakes are much higher now. They are not going to go after each other with swords on horseback. The planet is smaller and the weapons are larger. The next time all hell breaks lose they will take the rest of us with them. They believe they are going to an afterlife paradise. So what if the world ends. It's supposed to isn't it? Read revelations.

I cannot imagine a single scenario where the religious would take the rest of us with them, regardless of anything Revelations has to say about the matter.

Quote:Would the Israeli-Palestinian dispute over land be settled now if it were not for their respective religious views?
Could we not settle the abortion debate using reason and consensus if it were not for religious views?
Could we not settle the question of gay and lesbian acceptance/marriage if not for religious views?
Would women have equal rights to men if not for religious views?
Would we have a safer world if not for religious views?


Or:
Would we rather see women and homosexuals descriminated against and even killed for being born who they are?
Would we rather see the Israelis and Palestinians continue to kill each other over a 3000 year old religious feud?
Would we rather see abortion doctors shot while coming out of church in front of his wife and children?

This is my point exactly. This is way too simplistic.

Quote:That's not hyperbolic rhetoric, that's data and it's frightening.

I'm not going to let you get away with this one. If you present a dozen arguments that are hyperbolic and then offer one single reasonable statistic, you can't claim that you're not using hyperbole. For example:

Blacks are tearing apart the country. Their poverty-stricken ghettos are a breeding ground for anti-white sentiment. They're coming for us and they're starting with our women. Soon everyone will be brown, genetically impure, genetically inferior and shooting each other over crack. Black people are genetically predisposed to criminal activity. There are a disproportionate number of blacks in prison. That's not hyperbolic rhetoric, that's data and it's frightening.

Look, if you want to claim that religion is responsible for everything, well, that's your right. If that's your argument, I accept that it is your argument. I disagree wholeheartedly. I'm not saying that religion is innocent of all charges. I believe that there are multiple determinates and that oversimplifying the situation by placing all of the blame on a single node in a complex system presents the greatest possible threat.

ON EDIT: An analogy. It’s true that leaving the oven on is a serious threat to your house in that it might burn it down. But it is most certainly not the only threat to your house in that there are many other ways that it can burn down. As dangerous as leaving the oven on may be, suggesting that leaving the oven on is the only threat and, by extension, ignoring the other ways a house might burn down, represents a greater threat and in no way suggests that unattended ovens aren’t dangerous.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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12-10-2011, 07:48 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
(11-10-2011 10:43 PM)Thomas Wrote:  I don't believe we can separate human greed from religious doctrine. This is the argument many make about the founding of American. The copout is to claim that religion played no part and this was simply human corporate greed.

When the Catholic church invented purgatory and went around Europe asking poor farmers to pay a tribute so that the pope would pray to get their dead relatives released, was this just human corporate greed?

When we burned Native American tribal leaders at the stake for not converting to Christianity and then took over their land, was this just human corporate greed?

You see my friend, religion is just human corporate greed. This is a system of the rich taking from the poor based on getting the poor to believe in a supernatural being who likes his profits to be filthy rich. You see it today with TV evangelists. The past is documented plainly enough.

I recently went to one of the mega churches to hear a presentation on Islam. The entire program was set up to "warn" Christians of this "invasion". Was the pasture really trying to cause some devoted followers to go out and harm Muslims? Probably not, BUT I can tell you from listening to the rhetoric that it made the hair stand up on the back of my neck because I could see it happening.

Understand that the stakes are much higher now. They are not going to go after each other with swords on horseback. The planet is smaller and the weapons are larger. The next time all hell breaks lose they will take the rest of us with them. They believe they are going to an afterlife paradise. So what if the world ends. It's supposed to isn't it? Read revelations.

Answer the following:

Would the Israeli-Palestinian dispute over land be settled now if it were not for their respective religious views?
Could we not settle the abortion debate using reason and consensus if it were not for religious views?
Could we not settle the question of gay and lesbian acceptance/marriage if not for religious views?
Would women have equal rights to men if not for religious views?
Would we have a safer world if not for religious views?


Or:
Would we rather see women and homosexuals descriminated against and even killed for being born who they are?
Would we rather see the Israelis and Palestinians continue to kill each other over a 3000 year old religious feud?
Would we rather see abortion doctors shot while coming out of church in front of his wife and children?

Religion is on the wrong side of history, because the history it will write doesn't exist. That story ends human history. Just like the good book says.
44% of American Christians believe they will see the second coming of JC in their lifetime. That's not hyperbolic rhetoric, that's data and it's frightening.
Hi everyone.

I just want to give my total support to everything Thomas has written here. I believe it is spot on.

Ghost, I don't think Thomas is saying that religion is the only cause of the world's ills, but that it is one of the primary causes of those ills (which you admit as well).

I think we need to hammer this home so that people become more aware of it. Christianity is fundamentally EVIL. The guts of the dogma is all about power and control. That was why this toxic doctrine was created in the first place, and why it has been propagated so successfully ever since. Rather than being the solution to the wrongs of the world, it is the CAUSE of many of the world's ills.

Agnostics in particular should be aware of this, as should any parent.

Well written Thomas! Don't stop!
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12-10-2011, 07:48 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
(11-10-2011 10:43 PM)Thomas Wrote:  I don't believe we can separate human greed from religious doctrine.

(12-10-2011 07:22 PM)Ghost Wrote:  I don't understand this. If to be greedy is to be human, then of course we can't separate it from religious doctrine... or from any other belief system for that matter?

If we can't separate the greed from the human then we're just fucking doomed.

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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12-10-2011, 07:50 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
I agree with you Ghost. That's twice.

I think that religion is only part of the problem, a big part, but only a part. It shouldn't be ignored either simply because there are other issues to deal with either.

"I cannot imagine a single scenario where the religious would take the rest of us with them, regardless of anything Revelations has to say about the matter." - Ghost.

That's the only thing I had a problem with. Not that you couldn't imagine it, that's plausible, but there isn't a scenario possible. What about the groups that actually think it is their role to start Armageddon? Some of these people have had a lot of sway in government. Not a theory either it has been proven. They didn't get anywhere, but that's not to say that they never will. I find it unlikely, but at the same time that is about the only scenario I can imagine where the religious could succeed in wiping out all life on the planet. On purpose anyways.

"I think of myself as an intelligent, sensitive human being with the soul of a clown which always forces me to blow it at the most important moments." -Jim Morrison
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