A Serious Threat to World Peace
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13-10-2011, 07:19 AM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
Hey, Mark.

I don't think I can respond to your points. I think they're fanciful. Of note, I think that the notion you ask me to consider, standing up to Hitler in the 30s, is a perfect example a gross oversimplification of a complex issue.

I'm no Biblical scholar. I've never claimed to be one. I can appreciate that you are. That being said, as much as you know about the Bible, I think that your understanding of the relationship between the Bible and Christianity is almost entirely fabricated. We've had numerous disagreements about the relationship between the two, but they were all based on that difference of opinion.

I stand by my two very simple points. Ignoring the complexity of the situation poses a greater threat than religion itself. Critiques of religion should be based in reality.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-10-2011, 08:01 AM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
(13-10-2011 07:19 AM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Mark.

I don't think I can respond to your points. I think they're fanciful. Of note, I think that the notion you ask me to consider, standing up to Hitler in the 30s, is a perfect example a gross oversimplification of a complex issue.

I'm no Biblical scholar. I've never claimed to be one. I can appreciate that you are. That being said, as much as you know about the Bible, I think that your understanding of the relationship between the Bible and Christianity is almost entirely fabricated. We've had numerous disagreements about the relationship between the two, but they were all based on that difference of opinion.

I stand by my two very simple points. Ignoring the complexity of the situation poses a greater threat than religion itself. Critiques of religion should be based in reality.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt

Unlike you to be lost for words LOL

That's ok.

I'm tired anyway. I am off to China for a holiday for 3 weeks on Saturday. I'm a bit over god and Jesus for the moment, so it will be a good " head clear " for me.

Talk later, Mark
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13-10-2011, 05:12 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
What's the story today regarding the Iranian plot to assassinate a Saudi ambassador in the US? Why would they do that? that seems like a bad idea. What are they gaining from that? What have they got to loose from getting caught?

BUT, the majority of the Iranian people are smart, reasonable, educated, just, and get along fairly well around the world with almost everyone.

Could it be that a small minority of theocrates (less than 7%?) could start yet another shooting war in the middle east? The same theogrates who just threatend to position war ships off the US east coast. The same theocrates who are driving as fast as they can to develop nucs and have declared that they intend to wipe out Israel?

Naaaa. Couldn't happen. lets ignore it. It's too complicated of a situation to just boil it down to a bumper sticker. Maybe if I put my head in the sand this will all go away. ...and religious belief has absolutely nothing to do with this.

Now we're having funTongue
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13-10-2011, 06:49 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
(13-10-2011 07:19 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I'm no Biblical scholar. I've never claimed to be one. I can appreciate that you are. That being said, as much as you know about the Bible, I think that your understanding of the relationship between the Bible and Christianity is almost entirely fabricated.

Oh no it's not. Entirely fabricated? Almost? He is very informed. How we treat that info can be debated... but fabricated? no way.

Quote:I stand by my two very simple points. Ignoring the complexity of the situation poses a greater threat than religion itself. Critiques of religion should be based in reality.

Ignoring the complexity is a grave mistake and I think you are doing that at times, Mark. A greater threat... no, not in the long run.

Good debate guys.

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
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13-10-2011, 07:43 PM (This post was last modified: 13-10-2011 08:10 PM by Ghost.)
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
Hey, Defacto.

By fabricated I mean arbitrarily decided upon despite data from observation.

Also, please don't call me Mark.

And I stand by my position. It's a greater threat.

Hey, Thomas.

I'm not impress by your comedy performance.

You Wrote:Could it be that a small minority of theocrates (less than 7%?) could start yet another shooting war in the middle east?
I Wrote:Now if one were to say that religious organisations and/or powerful religious figures could destabilise situations and possibly incite or prolong conflicts, I could buy that. Hell, Coke would do that. But this Armageddon stuff is utterly insubstantial.

Quote:The same theogrates who just threatend to position war ships off the US east coast.

I'm reasonably confident in the ability of the US Navy to defend the East coast.

Quote:Naaaa. Couldn't happen. lets ignore it. It's too complicated of a situation to just boil it down to a bumper sticker. Maybe if I put my head in the sand this will all go away. ...and religious belief has absolutely nothing to do with this.

I never once suggested ignoring anything and I never once said anything even remotely close to "religious belief has absolutely nothing to do with this."

Look, if you disagree with me, that's one thing. But you cannot convince me that your reading comprehension is so poor that you can't even grasp my argument.

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-10-2011, 08:38 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
(13-10-2011 07:43 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Defacto.
You got the name right!

Quote:By fabricated I mean arbitrarily decided upon despite data from observation.

That's better.

Quote:Also, please don't call me Mark.

Sorry it bothers you that much. I would probably overlook such an error made toward me if I weren't trying so hard to be best.

Quote:And I stand by my position. It's a greater threat.

Very good, Matt

Quote:Peace and Love and Empathy,

I doubt it, seriously.

Who can turn skies back and begin again?
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13-10-2011, 09:12 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
(13-10-2011 06:49 PM)defacto7 Wrote:  
(13-10-2011 07:19 AM)Ghost Wrote:  I'm no Biblical scholar. I've never claimed to be one. I can appreciate that you are. That being said, as much as you know about the Bible, I think that your understanding of the relationship between the Bible and Christianity is almost entirely fabricated.

Oh no it's not. Entirely fabricated? Almost? He is very informed. How we treat that info can be debated... but fabricated? no way.

Quote:I stand by my two very simple points. Ignoring the complexity of the situation poses a greater threat than religion itself. Critiques of religion should be based in reality.

Ignoring the complexity is a grave mistake and I think you are doing that at times, Mark. A greater threat... no, not in the long run.

Good debate guys.

Thanks for the support de facto.

I take your point about "ignoring the complexity." I probably need to "round out" my arguments more, or else I will get perceived as a ranter. For example...I should add there is much more to the situation in the middle east than just religious differences...there are financial considerations, land ownership considerations, corporate greed, internal ie inter-Islamic factors all contributing to the volatility of the region. These issues need to be addressed too.
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13-10-2011, 09:48 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
A few here have thought complexity is overlooked and they are correct, but by intention. We don't understand quantum physics, but theoretical scientists are able to predict quantum outcomes with extreme certainty using simple experiments.

Even an ant colony is extremely complicated. I don't need to understand the colony, just the ant's nature. The ant is deterministic and predictable, therefore the colony is predictable.

Governments are this way, so are religious leaders and therefore so are the religious followers.

If you overlook the simple for the complicated it only explains the simple.

Think about how many people are actually involved in decision making on the big scale. How many people decided that the US was to invade Iraq? How many people decided to take out OBL? How many people decided to fly planes into the world trade center? How few people does it take to change the world?

You see, your fate and mine, and the rest of the 7 billion people who live on the planet will have their fate decided by just a handful of people who are themselves deterministic and predictable.

There is a saying that old men wage war, but young men fight it. More like a few old men wage war and many young men fight it and multitudes of the innocent bear the burden.

Watch the leaders. They are predictable. They are deterministic in their every move. Do not overestimate the human intellect. Just as I could goat you as easily as I did. You had no chance from your first reply. I threw up a silly story about a tree and rock theology. Seriously, how f'n dumb was that story? Go back and read it again. You were caught like a fish in a net. You put the pieces together yourself and then couldn't walk away. You had to copy lines from my silly dribble and rebut me as if your were on a mission to set me straight. YOU HAD NO CHOICE IN THE MATTER. And finally you were frustrated by my lack of engagement with what you thought were insightful points. I sincerely apologize for f'n with you like that, but I was determined to.

All 7 billion humans on the planet are deterministic creatures lead by their impulses with the illusion that they actually have free will in directing their lives. The obvious truth is that if they all did have free will there wouldn't be 7 billion people, just as an ant colony could not survive if all the ants had free will.

So what will be, will be. Most humans will cling to superstition and some will not. The ones not were determined not, and likewise. The theocrats will wage war for their god and others will wage war against them for theirs. It will not be the first time in this universe that an intelligent species with so much potentiall for good self destructed and it will not be the last. But it is fun being alive to play the game. Even though my consciousness is likely an illusion I can accept that, for it is an illusion that I do enjoy. Sharing the illusion is also part of the pleasure, and ice cream sundaes. How I love ice cream sundaes.

Enjoy your dayWink
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13-10-2011, 10:04 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
Hey, Defacto.

I'll just assume that someone pissed in your Cheerios.

Hey, Mark.

Quote:I take your point about "ignoring the complexity." I probably need to "round out" my arguments more, or else I will get perceived as a ranter. For example...I should add there is much more to the situation in the middle east than just religious differences...there are financial considerations, land ownership considerations, corporate greed, internal ie inter-Islamic factors all contributing to the volatility of the region. These issues need to be addressed too.

Those are good points. That being said, I think it's a step further than needing to address them too. All of those things, religion included, form a system. The system can't be dealt with in parts. The whole needs to be addressed.

I don't know what your background/position is on systems thinking, but from what I've gathered, you're an MD. If that's true then I assume that you know what I mean when I say that a human body can be analysed by taking it apart and looking at the pieces, but you only gain knowledge about what it truly is and how it works when it's assembled and functioning and all of the emergent properties can be seen.

Personally, I'd never say there's nothing wrong with religion, nor would I say that there's nothing wrong with, say, pancreatic cancer. But they're both just parts of a larger whole. Problematic parts. But parts of a whole that exist in relationship with other interdependent parts within that whole. You wouldn't just hack out a cancerous pancreas without understanding skin, infections, anaesthetics, blood pressure, hormones, insulin (I'm sure you know better than me how long that list is) and most importantly, how they interrelate.

Just taking that analogy to its logical conclusion, what do you think is more dangerous? A cancerous pancreas, or advocating its excision while ignoring the dynamic of the system of which it is a part?

Peace and Love and Empathy,

Matt
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13-10-2011, 10:22 PM
RE: A Serious Threat to World Peace
(13-10-2011 10:04 PM)Ghost Wrote:  Hey, Defacto.

I'll just assume that someone pissed in your Cheerios.

Matt, you hurt me deeply. And I thought we were lovers?

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