A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
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17-12-2012, 05:01 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(16-12-2012 10:26 PM)Egor Wrote:  
(16-12-2012 03:02 PM)morondog Wrote:  ... You're a strange guy Egor.

*Precog* dreams ? Many of the same ?

Meaning predictive of the future ?

How strong is the precognition ? Meaning, how accurate and how unlikely are the predictions. Could you predict a die throw? Multiple dice throws? How sure are you that the precog actually happened ? i.e. is it maybe being *ascribed* as precog after the fact ? Are your memories of the dreams hazy or sharp ?

I dreamed I saw a green parrot, and when I woke up, I saw one that day.

I dreamed I saw ultralights flying, and when I woke up, that day, there were ultralights flying around.

I dreamed I was in a grade school in Sterling with a class of small kids. When I woke up, a grade school masacare had occurred in Dunblain, just outside of Sterling.

I dreamed my wife had a wound in her abdomen. When I woke up, that day she developed a twisted colon and had to be rushed into the OR for an abdominal surgery.

I've posted the details in here before, but I'm not at home to cut and paste them at this time.



Quote:Also, what is a lucid dream (apologies if this has been asked) ? Do you have a special definition, in the same way that God means something different to every single Christian, or is there some sort of agreed upon method for determining if you are having a lucid dream ?

You don't know what a lucid dream is? It's a dream where you know you're dreaming while your dreaming. Usually you can do things in the dream you can't do in life like fly around, pass through walls, make things exist, etc.


Quote:I hardly ever dream, and when I do it's very disconnected and random. Entirely consistent with brain firing off random thoughts and arranging them into some kind of narrative... not that I have any idea what the standard literature on dreams offers as an alternative to your theories.


Forget the standard literature. You said "...brain firing random thoughts." What perceives the thoughts you have?
I remembered having a lucid dream once. When I realised I was dreaming, I did the first thing any sane person would - conjure fireballs out of my hands. The unexpected thing happened, I felt a searing pain, which in theory I shouldn't. Further attempts to mess with the dream world had painful consequences Undecided

I'm kind of neutral towards Egor's ideas. They are interesting, and I'm particularly interested with the claim that Paramecium has a consciousness. My hypothesis is that persistent environmental changes will lead to change in cellular structure in Paramecium, allowing it to better adapt to future stimuli. They "learn" that way in my opinion, not due to the fact that it has a consciousness. Time to do more science to find out!

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Have you ever tried taking a comfort blanket away from a small child? - DLJ
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17-12-2012, 05:09 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 01:19 AM)Egor Wrote:  If atheism is true, then what I am, and what you do mean absolutely nothing.

This concept is sort of what I try to get across sometimes.

Some Atheists attempt to give a detailed explanation of purpose and direction for people when the Theory of God fails.
It doesn't matter how it's explained, it only takes time before all purpose and meaning has dissolved.
At that point, the artificial meaning of life is no longer even artificial.
Now, here is usually where Atheists mistake what I say here to be a reason for my belief in God.
My reason for belief in God is not religious, it's not speculative or subconscious, it's not even because of how I was raised and it's not to add purpose to my life.

If I have to accept an understanding of life that is meaningless, I will, if it means it's the truth.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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17-12-2012, 05:20 AM
 
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 05:01 AM)robotworld Wrote:  I'm kind of neutral towards Egor's ideas. They are interesting, and I'm particularly interested with the claim that Paramecium has a consciousness. My hypothesis is that persistent environmental changes will lead to change in cellular structure in Paramecium, allowing it to better adapt to future stimuli. They "learn" that way in my opinion, not due to the fact that it has a consciousness. Time to do more science to find out!



Do let me know what you come up with. I highly recommend making your own firsthand observations with your own microscope as I did (First I used the college's then I bought one of my own.). I, myself, have never done the behavioral experiments but have only read the Toledo University paper on it. I would love to do my own research someday, but it's not really my thing.
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17-12-2012, 05:29 AM
 
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 05:09 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  If I have to accept an understanding of life that is meaningless, I will, if it means it's the truth.


What good is the truth if there is no meaning to life? The truth is just another thing in that case. And if the truth is that there is no purpose to life, then existence is futile. Experience is futile.
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17-12-2012, 05:42 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
Have you heard of dimethyltryptamine (DMT) it has been called "the spirit molecule"

Basicly it is found in all living things and is produced by the pineal gland when we sleep and also our body dumps DMT when we die. Tribes have been ingesting DMT for thousands of years in the brew form called ayahuasca, there is obviously science behind it but a lot isnt understood yet. It has helped people recover from depression and addictions as it basicly strips away your "ego".

Whats funny about the DMT is people all seem to have the same sort of experiences. Consider

It is of my uneducated belief that it is through these forms of psychedelic taking that has "evolved" our very own consciousness.

Here is the documentary Erx pointed me out to if anybody wishes to have a gander.......




For no matter how much I use these symbols, to describe symptoms of my existence.
You are your own emphasis.
So I say nothing.

-Bemore.
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17-12-2012, 06:03 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 05:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  What good is the truth if there is no meaning to life? The truth is just another thing in that case. And if the truth is that there is no purpose to life, then existence is futile. Experience is futile.

Are you saying you would rather live a lie in that case?

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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17-12-2012, 06:15 AM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2012 06:32 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
Present day theists, and often Westerners are conditioned to think about "meaning" in terms of *individual* / *personal* meaning systems. That has not always been the case, even in Biblical terms. Since there was no conception of "immortality" for the Hebrews, and even their "meaning paradigm" changed after the family structures/lineages were destroyed after the Exile, from "meaning granted by family", (ie sons to carry on the family line), indicates that even the Judeo-Christian system was not built on individual meaning. Clearly, Evolution shows that if there is such a thing, it's not about individuals, but groups. We are totally indoctrinated into the modern (American) idea if Individualism.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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17-12-2012, 06:22 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 04:26 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 01:49 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Just so everyone knows, I have a small picture of myself and girlfriend (now wife) on my website. The caption reads "Mark, with patient girlfriend Enly" This is where Egor gets the idea I "fuck my patients." Nice guy, our Egor.

Hey if the condom fits...

Quote:That's funny coming from you. You're not losing your cool are you big fella? Why not say a prayer to your fugly mental monotone of consciousness? Don't forget little baby Jeebus said "love your enemies"

So, you're an atheist but you're relying on my generosity, my love of humanity to stop me from insulting you. Doesn't that embarass you?

[Image: Lou+Gosset+Jr.+An+Officer+and+a+Gentleman.PNG]

Quote:Egor, you don't intimidate me in the slightest. Your verbal abuse is pathetic. I am glad, however, you're on the other side of the world. If you were my neighbor I'd be afraid, very afraid. In fact so would the whole street.


That's right. I walk down the street, my dog craps on your lawn, and you peek out from behind your blinds. And if I don't intimidate you why would you be afraid? Besides, I'm not talking about physically beating you or making you my be-otch. That's your fantasy, not mine. I'm talking about in debate. Smartass
Re..."So, you're an atheist but you're relying on my generosity, my love of
humanity to stop me from insulting you. Doesn't that embarass you?"

Huh? I've got no idea what you mean.

Re..."And if I don't intimidate you why would you be afraid? Besides, I'm not
talking about physically beating you or making you my be-otch."

Well...as best I can tell, you're not exactly emotionally stable, are you! You rant and rave about rubbish, your understanding of anything complex is superficial at best, you're abusive, opinionated and loud. You change your mind impulsively, and use language that implies physical violence. Your only apparent redeeming feature is that you've probably managed to hold down a part time job as a nurse.

Now, I might be completely wrong about you. The internet can't reveal a full impression of anyone. You may be a gentle pacifist and a humanist who cares for people, but you give absolutely no clues that that's the case.

That's why I wouldn't want to be your next door neighbor...I doubt you can control your anger or suppress your nastiness.
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17-12-2012, 06:46 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 06:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Present day theists, and often Westerners are conditioned to think about "meaning" in terms of *individual* / *personal* meaning systems. That has not always been the case, even in Biblical terms. Since there was no conception of "immortality" for the Hebrews, and even their "meaning paradigm" changed after the family structures/lineages were destroyed after the Exile, from "meaning granted by family", (ie sons to carry on the family line), indicates that even the Judeo-Christian system was not built on individual meaning. Clearly, Evolution shows that if there is such a thing, it's not about individuals, but groups. We are totally indoctrinated into the modern (American) idea if Individualism.

I agree, meaning (wherever the system was conceived) has something to do with groups and peoples outside of ourselves. But I also think that it's individual as well. I don't see a problem with it being both.

However, I believe my understanding of God has buffed my sense of meaning to a different level than previously.
If I were able to know if God existed or not and found that he did not, I honestly would just stop searching for "meaning", go to work, pay the bills, and just go whatever direction a felt like going at the time.
Any meaning I did find, if I found any, would ultimately expire, given a long enough time frame.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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17-12-2012, 06:58 AM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2012 07:01 AM by Mark Fulton.)
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 06:46 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Present day theists, and often Westerners are conditioned to think about "meaning" in terms of *individual* / *personal* meaning systems. That has not always been the case, even in Biblical terms. Since there was no conception of "immortality" for the Hebrews, and even their "meaning paradigm" changed after the family structures/lineages were destroyed after the Exile, from "meaning granted by family", (ie sons to carry on the family line), indicates that even the Judeo-Christian system was not built on individual meaning. Clearly, Evolution shows that if there is such a thing, it's not about individuals, but groups. We are totally indoctrinated into the modern (American) idea if Individualism.

I agree, meaning (wherever the system was conceived) has something to do with groups and peoples outside of ourselves. But I also think that it's individual as well. I don't see a problem with it being both.

However, I believe my understanding of God has buffed my sense of meaning to a different level than previously.
If I were able to know if God existed or not and found that he did not, I honestly would just stop searching for "meaning", go to work, pay the bills, and just go whatever direction a felt like going at the time.
Any meaning I did find, if I found any, would ultimately expire, given a long enough time frame.
I agree meaning has both group and individual aspects.

I wonder whether you've considered that one of the best ways to find meaning is to live in the present.

God fearers are doing themselves a disservice. The promise of paradise robs people of the pleasure of living in the present, and that’s a pity. There’s a better way to find meaning that doesn’t require belief in half-baked mumbo-jumbo. Who remembers what it was like to be a young child? Picture yourself running around a playground. We didn’t waste time worrying about God, the afterlife or why we are here. We were too busy exploring every nook and cranny of our world. We were unhindered by our experiences, expressed ourselves openly, and weren’t afraid of being judged. We accepted life with wide-open arms, didn’t deny our emotions, and weren’t cynical or opinionated. We were authentic, lived in the present, and were thoroughly happy as a result.

I contend Christians should embrace the here and now. When we do that, the present has more meaning: the taste of food, a glass of good wine, a friend's smile, a string quartet or a Miles Davis ballad can be enjoyed for what they are and because they’re temporary. To experience the pleasure of the present, and stop worrying about consequences, can be like coming out of a trance. It’s about being receptive to the full gamut of the human experience, and that helps us feel more alive.

When it turns out there’s no god and no afterlife, it won’t matter, because we won’t be alive! We were all “dead” for billions of years before we were born, and it didn’t bother any of us in the slightest.

Life is all about the journey, not the imaginary destination, which is why we don’t need gods, beliefs, and creeds; we need to let them go!
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