A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
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17-12-2012, 07:00 AM (This post was last modified: 17-12-2012 07:48 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 06:46 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  Present day theists, and often Westerners are conditioned to think about "meaning" in terms of *individual* / *personal* meaning systems. That has not always been the case, even in Biblical terms. Since there was no conception of "immortality" for the Hebrews, and even their "meaning paradigm" changed after the family structures/lineages were destroyed after the Exile, from "meaning granted by family", (ie sons to carry on the family line), indicates that even the Judeo-Christian system was not built on individual meaning. Clearly, Evolution shows that if there is such a thing, it's not about individuals, but groups. We are totally indoctrinated into the modern (American) idea if Individualism.

I agree, meaning (wherever the system was conceived) has something to do with groups and peoples outside of ourselves. But I also think that it's individual as well. I don't see a problem with it being both.

However, I believe my understanding of God has buffed my sense of meaning to a different level than previously.
If I were able to know if God existed or not and found that he did not, I honestly would just stop searching for "meaning", go to work, pay the bills, and just go whatever direction a felt like going at the time.
Any meaning I did find, if I found any, would ultimately expire, given a long enough time frame.
And maybe what that's all about is a juvenile view, and actually sounds like you suffer from depression. The fact is you have the choice to find meaning elsewhere, than theism. If you refuse to, that's your problem. It's rather infantile, but it's your life. People find meaning in all sorts of things. Your statement says more about your own depressed state than atheism/theism.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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17-12-2012, 07:04 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 06:58 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:46 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I agree, meaning (wherever the system was conceived) has something to do with groups and peoples outside of ourselves. But I also think that it's individual as well. I don't see a problem with it being both.

However, I believe my understanding of God has buffed my sense of meaning to a different level than previously.
If I were able to know if God existed or not and found that he did not, I honestly would just stop searching for "meaning", go to work, pay the bills, and just go whatever direction a felt like going at the time.
Any meaning I did find, if I found any, would ultimately expire, given a long enough time frame.
I agree meaning has both group and individual aspects.

I wonder whether you've considered that one of the best ways to find meaning is to live in the present.























God fearers are doing
themselves a disservice. The promise of paradise
robs people of the pleasure of living in the present, and that’s a pity. There’s a better way to find meaning that
doesn’t require belief in half-baked mumbo-jumbo. Who remembers what it was
like to be a young child? Picture yourself running around a playground. We
didn’t waste time worrying about God, the afterlife or why we are here. We were
too busy exploring every nook and cranny of our world. We were unhindered by
our experiences, expressed ourselves openly, and weren’t afraid of being
judged. We accepted life with wide-open
arms, didn’t deny our emotions, and weren’t
cynical or opinionated. We were authentic, lived in the present, and
were thoroughly happy as a result.



I contend Christians should embrace the here and now. When we do that, the present has
more meaning
: the taste of food, a
glass of good wine, a friend's smile, a string quartet or a Miles Davis ballad can
be enjoyed for what they are and because they’re temporary. To experience the
pleasure of the present, and stop worrying about consequences, can be like coming
out of a trance. It’s about being receptive to the full gamut of the human
experience, and that helps us feel more alive.


When it turns out
there’s no god and no afterlife, it won’t matter, because we won’t be alive! We
were all “dead” for billions of years before we were born, and it didn’t bother
any of us in the slightest.


Life
is all about the journey, not the imaginary destination, which is why w
e don’t need gods,
beliefs, and creeds; we need to let them go!

All of what you're saying is based on the heavy misconception that believing in a God deprives me of all those beautiful things.
It simply does not.
Even being an Atheist can deprive you of those things, but it's only if you let it.
Many Christians take their belief to mean something that it's not.
I do all of the things you're saying - while still believing in God.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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17-12-2012, 07:07 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
So, I'm only going to respond to the OP.

Egor is right on some level (in my opinion). Atheism is illogical for two reasons, one of which is well known to most of you, and some don't agree, and that's fine, but I'm not looking to go down that road again. First of all, to deny belief in a god or gods you must first define the deity, or deities...blah blah blah. Secondly, having no deity doesn't give us an answer to why something exists in opposition to nothing, however from the second point Atheism is the most pragmatic choice in my opinion, but it still isn't a logical solution. Something can't come from nothing, and nothing has always been following logic. Solving this problem by constructing a ridiculously complex deity whose qualities are allegedly self-contradicting is MORE illogical however, especially without sufficient evidence (Notice I am not asking for proof.) Pragmatics must be willing to concede that the current best explanation isn't necessarily the truth, if objective truth even exists, but Egor, my friend, you aren't even trying because the truth is painful to you. Let go of your ego. You aren't that important, and neither am I.

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17-12-2012, 07:13 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 07:00 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:46 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I agree, meaning (wherever the system was conceived) has something to do with groups and peoples outside of ourselves. But I also think that it's individual as well. I don't see a problem with it being both.

However, I believe my understanding of God has buffed my sense of meaning to a different level than previously.
If I were able to know if God existed or not and found that he did not, I honestly would just stop searching for "meaning", go to work, pay the bills, and just go whatever direction a felt like going at the time.
Any meaning I did find, if I found any, would ultimately expire, given a long enough time frame.
And maybe what that's all about is a juvenile view, and actually sound like you suffer from depression. The fact is you have the choice to find meaning elsewhere, than theism. If you refuse to, that's your problem. It's rather infantile, but it's your life. People find meaning in all sorts of things. Your statement says more about your own depressed state than atheism/theism.

Well yeah, I think that the mind can just bring people down once they've been up for so long.

You see, all of my reasoning and logic would have to be destroyed in order to cease my belief in God. That would bring me to a temporary point of deep depression. I would probably seek some therapy and such if I couldn't keep my spirits up on my own.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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17-12-2012, 07:20 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 05:42 AM)bemore Wrote:  Here is the documentary Erx pointed me out to if anybody wishes to have a gander.......

I've just finished gandering.
Cheers mate.

Where can I get me summadat?

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17-12-2012, 07:20 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 07:04 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:58 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I agree meaning has both group and individual aspects.

I wonder whether you've considered that one of the best ways to find meaning is to live in the present.























God fearers are doing
themselves a disservice. The promise of paradise
robs people of the pleasure of living in the present, and that’s a pity. There’s a better way to find meaning that
doesn’t require belief in half-baked mumbo-jumbo. Who remembers what it was
like to be a young child? Picture yourself running around a playground. We
didn’t waste time worrying about God, the afterlife or why we are here. We were
too busy exploring every nook and cranny of our world. We were unhindered by
our experiences, expressed ourselves openly, and weren’t afraid of being
judged. We accepted life with wide-open
arms, didn’t deny our emotions, and weren’t
cynical or opinionated. We were authentic, lived in the present, and
were thoroughly happy as a result.



I contend Christians should embrace the here and now. When we do that, the present has
more meaning
: the taste of food, a
glass of good wine, a friend's smile, a string quartet or a Miles Davis ballad can
be enjoyed for what they are and because they’re temporary. To experience the
pleasure of the present, and stop worrying about consequences, can be like coming
out of a trance. It’s about being receptive to the full gamut of the human
experience, and that helps us feel more alive.


When it turns out
there’s no god and no afterlife, it won’t matter, because we won’t be alive! We
were all “dead” for billions of years before we were born, and it didn’t bother
any of us in the slightest.


Life
is all about the journey, not the imaginary destination, which is why w
e don’t need gods,
beliefs, and creeds; we need to let them go!

All of what you're saying is based on the heavy misconception that believing in a God deprives me of all those beautiful things.
It simply does not.
Even being an Atheist can deprive you of those things, but it's only if you let it.
Many Christians take their belief to mean something that it's not.
I do all of the things you're saying - while still believing in God.
Ok...I hear that. Yet....are you sure?

Isn't Christianity all about dreaming about heaven? And....worrying about whether you've done enough to get there? Isn't god watching you when you go to the toilet? Doesn't jeebus say your sins will be broadcast from the rooftops when you die? Doesn't he say blessed are they who mourn, they'll get their reward later? Can't he read all your wicked thoughts?

You may feel warm and fuzzy talking to your generic imaginary friend....but he's also out to get you, to control you, and to determine your ultimate destiny. That, I say, must piss you off, even if you don't realise (oops sorry Bucky...realize) it.

YOU are in charge of your destiny. YOU have to find your own meaning to be happy (so do I). It's not going to be handed to you on a plate by "accepting Jesus"
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17-12-2012, 07:27 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 07:13 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 07:00 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  And maybe what that's all about is a juvenile view, and actually sound like you suffer from depression. The fact is you have the choice to find meaning elsewhere, than theism. If you refuse to, that's your problem. It's rather infantile, but it's your life. People find meaning in all sorts of things. Your statement says more about your own depressed state than atheism/theism.

Well yeah, I think that the mind can just bring people down once they've been up for so long.

You see, all of my reasoning and logic would have to be destroyed in order to cease my belief in God. That would bring me to a temporary point of deep depression. I would probably seek some therapy and such if I couldn't keep my spirits up on my own.
Re

"You see, all of my reasoning and logic would have to be destroyed in order to cease my belief in God."

Huh? Please explain. I would genuinely like to understand you.
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17-12-2012, 07:47 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 07:20 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 07:04 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  All of what you're saying is based on the heavy misconception that believing in a God deprives me of all those beautiful things.
It simply does not.
Even being an Atheist can deprive you of those things, but it's only if you let it.
Many Christians take their belief to mean something that it's not.
I do all of the things you're saying - while still believing in God.
Ok...I hear that. Yet....are you sure?

Isn't Christianity all about dreaming about heaven? And....worrying about whether you've done enough to get there? Isn't god watching you when you go to the toilet? Doesn't jeebus say your sins will be broadcast from the rooftops when you die? Doesn't he say blessed are they who mourn, they'll get their reward later? Can't he read all your wicked thoughts?

You may feel warm and fuzzy talking to your generic imaginary friend....but he's also out to get you, to control you, and to determine your ultimate destiny. That, I say, must piss you off, even if you don't realise (oops sorry Bucky...realize) it.

YOU are in charge of your destiny. YOU have to find your own meaning to be happy (so do I). It's not going to be handed to you on a plate by "accepting Jesus"

Christianity is a Worldview. It's not so much about how to train your mind to think a certain way as it is a truth claim about where everything came from, why it's here, why we're here and what happened to make everything the way way it is now (Evil, suffering, love and so on).

What you've laid out is the basic misconception of religion in that it's just a bunch of nuts believing in something that children read about in their storybooks.
My understanding is that a closed mind will completely not even consider a worldview based on either misconceptions or it's "silliness".

I'll be honest though, when it comes to the religion that I claim to be a part of (Christianity), I do not take it blindly, I take it with full skepticism. I don't lean on Christianity to find my belief in God, and I simply don't use any religion to do so either.

(17-12-2012 07:20 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  "You see, all of my reasoning and logic would have to be destroyed in order to cease my belief in God."

Huh? Please explain. I would genuinely like to understand you.

I have reasoned to both the existence and nonexistence of God only to find the existence of God to be more probable.
This continued reasoning has held my belief in God in tact for a large portion of my life.
In order for me to cease my belief in God completely, I believe I would need years of logic and reasoning reversed and basically destroyed.

Perhaps you know what I mean now Smile

And btw, nice to meet you Mark Fulton. I don't remember meeting you yet lol

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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17-12-2012, 08:03 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 05:29 AM)Egor Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 05:09 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  If I have to accept an understanding of life that is meaningless, I will, if it means it's the truth.


What good is the truth if there is no meaning to life? The truth is just another thing in that case. And if the truth is that there is no purpose to life, then existence is futile. Experience is futile.
You two... what a pair of twinkies. Dodgy

Meaning is artifice. You think one fabricated purpose is greater than another; that it makes one somehow more real. But it is all shared delusion. You got three billion people hanging off the nuts of YHWH, you think he's a greater god than Gwyneth Paltrow? Don't try that in my hood. Ya know what's real? Ya know what's true? Primate. Scratch yer nuts. Knock yer neighbor over the head with a stick. Pick fleas out of your girlfriend's hair. That's keeping it real.

Everything else is a lie. Like this. The codification of concept into word. The telling of stories. The sharing of communication. We're not communicating truth, we're communicating passion. We're communicating hope. Love. Desire.

Truth. Go plant a seed, but remember, when the rain does not fall, it is the rain in your watering can-the lie-that makes truth abide.

No one lives without purpose. Jackasses.

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17-12-2012, 08:23 AM
A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 08:03 AM)houseofcantor Wrote:  [quote='Egor' pid='222028' dateline='1355743770']

No one lives without purpose. Jackasses.


Apparently Egor does since it seems to be his greatest paralyzingly fear.

It was just a fucking apple man, we're sorry okay? Please stop the madness Laugh out load
~Izel
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