A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
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17-12-2012, 09:33 PM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 06:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 07:47 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Christianity is a Worldview. It's not so much about how to train your mind to think a certain way as it is a truth claim about where everything came from, why it's here, why we're here and what happened to make everything the way way it is now (Evil, suffering, love and so on).

What you've laid out is the basic misconception of religion in that it's just a bunch of nuts believing in something that children read about in their storybooks.
My understanding is that a closed mind will completely not even consider a worldview based on either misconceptions or it's "silliness".

I'll be honest though, when it comes to the religion that I claim to be a part of (Christianity), I do not take it blindly, I take it with full skepticism. I don't lean on Christianity to find my belief in God, and I simply don't use any religion to do so either.



I have reasoned to both the existence and nonexistence of God only to find the existence of God to be more probable.
This continued reasoning has held my belief in God in tact for a large portion of my life.
In order for me to cease my belief in God completely, I believe I would need years of logic and reasoning reversed and basically destroyed.

Perhaps you know what I mean now Smile

And btw, nice to meet you Mark Fulton. I don't remember meeting you yet lol


Really nice to meet you too!


Christianity a worldview? Mmmmmmmm. You gotta do a mountainload od editing and interpreting to get some sort of "Worldview" out of it. I would call it a "mess", a "quagmire", rather than anything logical or coherent.

Worldview:
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.

Yes, Christianity is a Worldview.

(17-12-2012 06:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You think Christianity is a "truth claim?" Realy? Which bit of it? Where's the "truth?"

Basically, a truth claim is a view that claims to be the truth whereas other opinions or claims are false.
A truth claim is not a proof of it's claim, it is merely a claim about it's contents.

So yes, Christianity is a truth claim, just like the claim that God does not exist is also a truth claim.
The claim does not do anything in the way of actually proving it's claim.

Christianity claims to hold the truth about reality, so again, yes, Christianity is a truth claim.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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17-12-2012, 10:23 PM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 06:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Christianity a worldview? Mmmmmmmm. You gotta do a mountainload od editing and interpreting to get some sort of "Worldview" out of it. I would call it a "mess", a "quagmire", rather than anything logical or coherent.


You think Christianity is a "truth claim?" Realy? Which bit of it? Where's the "truth?"
Neither the phrase "world view" nor "truth claim" imply truth (even the one with truth in the name, believe it or not). Worldview is just another word for philosophy or general theory. Truth claim is synonymous with fact claim, as opposed to a claim to an opinion. So it's perfectly okay to call Christianity a world view and a truth claim, even if you don't accept Christianity as factual.

Your open hostility towards Christianity is fine... I get a dopamine rush just like you do when I see religions get insulted. But not everything said about religions are automatically false just because religion is being discussed.

My girlfriend is mad at me. Perhaps I shouldn't have tried cooking a stick in her non-stick pan.
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17-12-2012, 10:25 PM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 09:33 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Really nice to meet you too!


Christianity a worldview? Mmmmmmmm. You gotta do a mountainload od editing and interpreting to get some sort of "Worldview" out of it. I would call it a "mess", a "quagmire", rather than anything logical or coherent.

Worldview:
1. The overall perspective from which one sees and interprets the world.
2. A collection of beliefs about life and the universe held by an individual or a group.

Yes, Christianity is a Worldview.

(17-12-2012 06:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  You think Christianity is a "truth claim?" Realy? Which bit of it? Where's the "truth?"

Basically, a truth claim is a view that claims to be the truth whereas other opinions or claims are false.
A truth claim is not a proof of it's claim, it is merely a claim about it's contents.

So yes, Christianity is a truth claim, just like the claim that God does not exist is also a truth claim.
The claim does not do anything in the way of actually proving it's claim.

Christianity claims to hold the truth about reality, so again, yes, Christianity is a truth claim.

Freethought then is also a world view.

Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint
that holds opinions should be formed on the
basis of logic, reason and empiricism and not
authority, tradition, or other dogmas.

Truth claims are scrutinized revised and worked through.

By this method humanity is able to make better decisions about things in the world than religion is, because they are always constrained by their own texts.

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
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17-12-2012, 11:08 PM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 10:23 PM)Starcrash Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 06:26 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Christianity a worldview? Mmmmmmmm. You gotta do a mountainload od editing and interpreting to get some sort of "Worldview" out of it. I would call it a "mess", a "quagmire", rather than anything logical or coherent.


You think Christianity is a "truth claim?" Realy? Which bit of it? Where's the "truth?"

Neither the phrase "world view" nor "truth claim" imply truth (even the one with truth in the name, believe it or not). Worldview is just another word for philosophy or general theory. Truth claim is synonymous with fact claim, as opposed to a claim to an opinion. So it's perfectly okay to call Christianity a world view and a truth claim, even if you don't accept Christianity as factual.

Your open hostility towards Christianity is fine... I get a dopamine rush just like you do when I see religions get insulted. But not everything said about religions are automatically false just because religion is being discussed.



Ok. I've learnt something new about 'world view" and "truth claim."

Glad you get a dopamine rush.

I agree, "not everything said about religions are (is?) automatically false." For example, I could say "some Christians go to church" and it wouldn't be "automatically false" because it would be true. Um....what's your point?
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18-12-2012, 12:23 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 10:25 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Freethought then is also a world view.

Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint
that holds opinions should be formed on the
basis of logic, reason and empiricism and not
authority, tradition, or other dogmas.

Truth claims are scrutinized revised and worked through.

By this method humanity is able to make better decisions about things in the world than religion is, because they are always constrained by their own texts.

Philosopher William Kingdon Clifford describes the premise of Freethought: "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."

It looks like I can classify myself as a Philosophical Freethought Theist

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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18-12-2012, 09:49 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(18-12-2012 12:23 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 10:25 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Freethought then is also a world view.

Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint
that holds opinions should be formed on the
basis of logic, reason and empiricism and not
authority, tradition, or other dogmas.

Truth claims are scrutinized revised and worked through.

By this method humanity is able to make better decisions about things in the world than religion is, because they are always constrained by their own texts.

Philosopher William Kingdon Clifford describes the premise of Freethought: "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."

It looks like I can classify myself as a Philosophical Freethought Theist
There's no such thing as a freethinking theist if you are operating purely by that definition.

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18-12-2012, 09:55 AM
 
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(17-12-2012 06:15 AM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  We are totally indoctrinated into the modern (American) idea if Individualism.

Whatever. Here we are. The question of meaning and existence must be answered. Without God, there is no meaning to existence. If there is no God, ultimately nothing happens for any reason at all.

But I exist for a reason. God created my form in order to manifest some aspect of His nature within the physical universe. When I die, the body will dissolve, but the consciousness (which is all God's consciousness anyway) will continue on a lucid spiritual plane. I will continue to grow and evolve, until one day, I am full conscious of being God, and there will be no illusory mind/ego left. This is the act of God continually creating Himself.

(17-12-2012 06:03 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Are you saying you would rather live a lie in that case?

If there is no God, the truth is without any redeeming features. Low level truth, like "It helps to put oil in the pan when frying an egg." might be temporarily important, but a truth like, "There is no God and life has no meaning," would be a useless truth.

(17-12-2012 06:22 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Well...as best I can tell, you're not exactly emotionally stable, are you! You rant and rave about rubbish, your understanding of anything complex is superficial at best, you're abusive, opinionated and loud. You change your mind impulsively, and use language that implies physical violence. Your only apparent redeeming feature is that you've probably managed to hold down a part time job as a nurse.

Yeah...but...you follow my posts. I don't even look at yours. There are those who impact, and those who are impacted upon. Just sayin. Unsure

Quote:Now, I might be completely wrong about you. The internet can't reveal a full impression of anyone. You may be a gentle pacifist and a humanist who cares for people, but you give absolutely no clues that that's the case.

I care about my patients. I am a humanist. But, no, I don't think anyone will ever accuse me of being a pacifist--especially a gentle one.
God, it's fun to talk about me! Isn't it, Mark? It's fun to study me, isn't it? I must admit, I am my favorite topic, just like I am your favorite topic. Yes

Quote:That's why I wouldn't want to be your next door neighbor...I doubt you can control your anger or suppress your nastiness.

I must admit, it would be hard not to pay kids to TP your house on a regular basis. But it's not like I'm going to drag you over, put your hand on my grill, and make you tell me if my BBQ coals are hot enough yet. No

(17-12-2012 07:13 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  You see, all of my reasoning and logic would have to be destroyed in order to cease my belief in God.

That's how I feel about it. Knowing what I know, experiencing what I have experienced, I would have to lie to myself to say there is no God, and I would feel like a fool.

(17-12-2012 08:33 AM)Vera Wrote:  What is beyond me is how pleasing a made-up, make-believe, unimaginably cruel entity, with morals from thousands of years ago (and not the most admirable even back then) can give anyone anything else than a feeling of dread and utter despair. I'll take random over your god any day of the week. Any of your gods.

(And, Egor, spare me how I am too stupid and evil to understand it. Don't bother trying to enlighten me.)

I don't give a shit if you're enlightened. The afterworld needs leaf blowers and MacDonald's workers, too.

(17-12-2012 01:33 PM)Impulse Wrote:  You didn't have a problem with non-existence before you were born and you won't have a problem with it after you die either. You just don't know it yet. (Although, unless you change your mind, technically you never will know it.)

Before I was born, I was God. After I die, I will continue to evolve and will be God again.
God makes us so we can make God. It's a consciousness thing.Einstein
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18-12-2012, 10:01 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(18-12-2012 09:55 AM)Egor Wrote:  That's how I feel about it. Knowing what I know, experiencing what I have experienced, I would have to lie to myself to say there is no God, and I would feel like a fool.


You are a fool for believing that your own experiences are compelling evidence for your beliefs. If you saw a gnome scurry across the hallway during the night, would you believe it was actually a gnome or that you hallucinated? If you are educated, I recommend Carl Sagan's book, "Demon Haunted World".

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18-12-2012, 10:05 AM
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(18-12-2012 10:01 AM)Logica Humano Wrote:  
(18-12-2012 09:55 AM)Egor Wrote:  That's how I feel about it. Knowing what I know, experiencing what I have experienced, I would have to lie to myself to say there is no God, and I would feel like a fool.


You are a fool for believing that your own experiences are compelling evidence for your beliefs. If you saw a gnome scurry across the hallway during the night, would you believe it was actually a gnome or that you hallucinated? If you are educated, I recommend Carl Sagan's book, "Demon Haunted World".
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18-12-2012, 10:08 AM (This post was last modified: 18-12-2012 10:11 AM by fstratzero.)
RE: A Stomach Strong Enough for Atheism
(18-12-2012 12:23 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(17-12-2012 10:25 PM)fstratzero Wrote:  Freethought then is also a world view.

Freethought is a philosophical viewpoint
that holds opinions should be formed on the
basis of logic, reason and empiricism and not
authority, tradition, or other dogmas.

Truth claims are scrutinized revised and worked through.

By this method humanity is able to make better decisions about things in the world than religion is, because they are always constrained by their own texts.

Philosopher William Kingdon Clifford describes the premise of Freethought: "It is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence."

It looks like I can classify myself as a Philosophical Freethought Theist
Thumbsup Except..... overlooking.....

William Kingdon Clifford was arguing that it was immoral to believe things for which one lacks evidence, his 1877 essay "The Ethics of Belief" contains the famous principle "it is wrong always, everywhere, and for anyone, to believe anything upon insufficient evidence." As such, he was arguing in direct opposition to religious thinkers for whom "blind faith".

To the atheist, god is lacking all evidence.

SOURCE: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Kingdon_Clifford

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The atheist is a man who destroys the imaginary things which afflict the human race, and so leads men back to nature, to experience and to reason.
-Baron d'Holbach-
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