A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
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03-11-2013, 05:58 PM (This post was last modified: 03-11-2013 06:06 PM by Cathym112.)
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
I guess the sad thing here is not the pearls. Not at the heart of it. At the heart of it is the ability of some people to be taken so easily by anyone seeking to manipulate them. Our pack nature is a double edged sword. On the one hand, some people are born leaders and there are born followers. (If everyone was alpha, there would be no pack, no cooperation). Trouble is - nature forgot to instill a bullshit meter mechanism into the followers to be able to determine when their leader is leading them off a cliff.

The type of people who keep snake oil salesmen in business. If it wasn't the pearls, it would be PETA or something.

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=3688563
Like these people. No bullshit meter to know that the police wouldn't instruct a civilian to do anything via phone.

If we squashed the pearls - another cockroach would take their place. Making education available and accessible to everyone is the only way to erode religion. We can't ever make it go away, the same as we can't rid the world of psychopaths and mental illness.

Atheism or deism is growing. I know it doesn't feel like that, but eventually science and technology will make god completely obsolete. Or we will kill ourselves in WW3 and god will be obsolete by default.

A little rudeness and disrespect can elevate a meaningless interaction to a battle of wills and add drama to an otherwise dull day - Bill Watterson
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03-11-2013, 06:03 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
Good point Cathy. So sad that there are people out there that don't realize the evil in doing this to children.
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03-11-2013, 06:35 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(03-11-2013 04:44 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  The problem with charging loonies like the Pearls for things like this is that they are only reiterating things from a book that Christians claim is infallible and is the written word of an invisible man who is responsible for giving us our morals.

I must say that I do find the way any kind of physical punishment towards children is considered abhorrent in the U.S. There is a HUGE difference between spanking a child and beating a child. Let me propose two scenarios of different parents:

Scenario A: A child gets spanked by their parent because they got caught stealing from a store. The parent has spanked the child in the past, but these instances have been few and far between. Other times the child got spanked were when they hit another kid over the head because they got angry that they lost, and swearing at his teacher in school.

Scenario B: A child is growing up in a home where they have never been spanked. However, the child is constantly told things like "You're so stupid! You're worthless! You'll never amount to anything!" The child has never had any physical punishment done to them, but hears this from their parents all the time.

Now, here's my questions:

1. Which child do you think is more likely to end up doing drugs, joining a gang, or committing suicide?
2. Which parent do you think is most likely to get Child Services called on them?
3. Which parent do you think is more likely to lose custody of their child when having Child Services called on them?

I would bet a million dollars that the child of scenario B is a million times more likely to end up doing drugs, joining a gang, or committing suicide.

I would also bet the the parents in scenario A are a thousand times more likely to get Child Services called on them and a million times more likely to lose custody of their child.

Be honest with yourself: Who are you more likely to call Child Services on when you see it in public, having no knowledge of the situation: a parent that hits their kid, or a parent who degrades their child?

your options are bulshit, I hope it was based in a hypothetical world where all parents are cunts, for your sake.

How about the most common forms of discipline being used today,
At least in most civilised countries, " nagging "

Child is never told they are useless or stupid when then do bad things, they are sat down and lectured to with moral reasoning, grounded and restricted from there favorite items and pastimes.
Thus when they are older they, can see that the (non corporal) punishments were for the greater good and there was a logical argument for everything they did wrong. not just "because i say so".

There is NEVER any reason to hit kids, only the emotionally unbalanced are still defending it.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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04-11-2013, 07:03 AM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(03-11-2013 06:35 PM)sporehux Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 04:44 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  The problem with charging loonies like the Pearls for things like this is that they are only reiterating things from a book that Christians claim is infallible and is the written word of an invisible man who is responsible for giving us our morals.

I must say that I do find the way any kind of physical punishment towards children is considered abhorrent in the U.S. There is a HUGE difference between spanking a child and beating a child. Let me propose two scenarios of different parents:

Scenario A: A child gets spanked by their parent because they got caught stealing from a store. The parent has spanked the child in the past, but these instances have been few and far between. Other times the child got spanked were when they hit another kid over the head because they got angry that they lost, and swearing at his teacher in school.

Scenario B: A child is growing up in a home where they have never been spanked. However, the child is constantly told things like "You're so stupid! You're worthless! You'll never amount to anything!" The child has never had any physical punishment done to them, but hears this from their parents all the time.

Now, here's my questions:

1. Which child do you think is more likely to end up doing drugs, joining a gang, or committing suicide?
2. Which parent do you think is most likely to get Child Services called on them?
3. Which parent do you think is more likely to lose custody of their child when having Child Services called on them?

I would bet a million dollars that the child of scenario B is a million times more likely to end up doing drugs, joining a gang, or committing suicide.

I would also bet the the parents in scenario A are a thousand times more likely to get Child Services called on them and a million times more likely to lose custody of their child.

Be honest with yourself: Who are you more likely to call Child Services on when you see it in public, having no knowledge of the situation: a parent that hits their kid, or a parent who degrades their child?

your options are bulshit, I hope it was based in a hypothetical world where all parents are cunts, for your sake.

How about the most common forms of discipline being used today,
At least in most civilised countries, " nagging "

Child is never told they are useless or stupid when then do bad things, they are sat down and lectured to with moral reasoning, grounded and restricted from there favorite items and pastimes.
Thus when they are older they, can see that the (non corporal) punishments were for the greater good and there was a logical argument for everything they did wrong. not just "because i say so".

There is NEVER any reason to hit kids, only the emotionally unbalanced are still defending it.

Nice in principal, but that's the trouble with "never" and blanket zero tolerance policies when there are so many variables. There are some situations in which you can't reason or discuss logic with a 2 year old. Not in any real sense.

While I agree that time outs and naughty corners are effective, each child is different.
Parents are just people. People who will - at some point - lose patience and make a mistake in child rearing. To them, spanking was a viable option when they feel they've exhausted all other options. I don't think there is any reason to judge other parents decisions.

A friend had a child that the second you looked away, would take off. Now, she was vigilant in watching her son, but after awhile, you are bound to - I dunno - need to use the restroom and place your trust in someone to watch him for a New York minute while you pee. That hyper vigilience can't always last, particularly when there is more than one child.

Anyway - she was at a birthday party for one of her older son's friends. she turned her attention to her other son for a second and her youngest took off, running straight out of the open fence (guests were still arriving). And ran straight for the busy road. She caught him and delivered a swift and firm spank to his diapered ass. She lost her cool during her fear that her son would get hit by a car. He was 2. It didn't cause any emotional damage nor was it abuse by any means. It was a swift lesson for him. Running away from mommy will result in negative consequences. There is no "rationalizing" with a 2 year old when there are fatal consequences.

I was spanked when I was younger. A lot of us were. I think we dramatize the negative effects of spanking.

I personally think the amount of risk adverse over parenting is doing more damage than the occasional spanking while the child is between the ages of 2-4.
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04-11-2013, 07:20 AM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2013 07:28 AM by sporehux.)
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
Ah in hindsight i was a little harsh in my rebuttal to WindyCityJazz , im sure they meant no beatings style punishment.
my bad (sorry, hitchens moment), i was admittedly pro tap smack at one point.

But i still stand by zero smackage. I personally viewed my beatings as torture from a bully, not punishment for my wrong doings.
What if your kid shrugs off your little smack, how hard do you re-smack, and for how long. a very young child would not know the smack was for what they were doing.

I'm not claiming to be a great parent but i think my discipline system works well (at least with my daughters, they would probably rather a smack than my mind games/)

Bad deed done, daughter has 30 minutes to pick her own punishment, if i deem it appropriate than so be it, other wise she gets my punishment, "EMP" is the most extreme, zero electronics and grounded. no mobile phone is worth a thousand smacks.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx

“Physical punishment doesn’t work to get kids to comply, so parents think they have to keep escalating it. That is why it is so dangerous,”
Spanking doesn’t work, says Alan Kazdin, PhD, a Yale University psychology professor and director of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic. “You cannot punish out these behaviors that you do not want,” says Kazdin, who served as APA president in 2008. “There is no need for corporal punishment based on the research. We are not giving up an effective technique. We are saying this is a horrible thing that does not work.”

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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04-11-2013, 09:36 AM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
Ultimately the objective in discipline should always be to have the child evaluate their own behaviour against a standard they have bought into. You can't bully a child into accepting a standard and bullying is a pretty ineffective or at best ugly tool for encouraging compliance to a standard. Rather than going the direct route in deciding a punishment I often go down the road of: "What do you think the punishment should be for the kind of behaviour you're having right now / you just had?". "What do you think should happen this time and what do you think should happen next time?". "What would you think if <sibling> did that to your things?". If your discipline system is working well there should rarely be a need for anything more than a token punishment.

The disciplinary side of a "tap smack" is not the smack, it's the question you ask the child when they are misbehaving: "Do you think you would like a smack? Did you know your behaviour isn't good enough at the moment?" or "How many smacks do you think you need to help you brush your teeth / get your shoes on / wipe your bottom?". The point of the smack is to act as a tangible trigger for the child to evaluate their own behaviour. If you're frequently resorting to actual smacks then the effect quickly disappears and you have to move onto a different approach.

The trouble is that under the age of about four or five it's difficult to put boundaries and punishments in place that really matter to them. The threat of a light smack can be the best option available. Once they reach an age where they care about television and computer privileges though, they'll probably never be need to smack again Wink The threat goes from "Would you like a smack?" to "Are you ready to start losing privileges?" and "Do you think you are having 'playing on the computer' behaviour right now? What 'playing on the computer' behaviour could you have instead?'

... and every kid is different, even within the one family. The approach that works best varies between individuals and for the same individual over time.

Give me your argument in the form of a published paper, and then we can start to talk.
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04-11-2013, 09:54 AM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
When I was growing up I had a combination of spankings and restrictions. I'm not totally against smacking kids around a little bit, sometimes they need a shock. I don't have kids of my own, maybe if I ever do my opinions will change. But I'm the oldest of three and I babysat my siblings a lot. I took some of my parents strategies and mixed them with a few of my own to make those little snots be nice to each other. I wasn't afraid to pop them in the mouth if they said something rude or inappropriate, and if they started bickering I'd put them in the laundry room and stand by the door until I heard them apologize to each other and promise to be nice.
As for what my parents did, my mom used to wear flat sandals and she'd threaten to take her shoe off and beat our butts with it. It happened a few times, and mostly to my little brother who was the snottiest of all of us when he was a kid. My dad would spank us with his belt, but not that often. That was for serious offenses. And there was always a long talk involved before we actually got spanked, that was the most dreaded part! It usually started with the offending child being sent to his or her room to think about what they did, which also gave time for the angry parent to cool off. My parents didn't hit us angrily, they would come in and ask us "do you know why you're in trouble? What should you have done instead? What are you going to do next time? Etc." and then when we'd had our conversation, dad would say ok, stand up, turn around, put your hands on the bed. And then get a few good licks.
I don't think it scarred me as a kid, I'm a perfectly sound adult and I think spanking has it's place in raising children. But like I said, I'm not a mom, so things might change if I ever become one.
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04-11-2013, 10:31 AM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
I think the fact that so many of us were spanked as kids and feel like we turned out fine is kind of dangerous.

On one hand, I hesitate to flat out call it abuse because I don't want to trivialize real abuse, but I also wonder how we would have turned out if our parents hadn't opted for that form of punishment. This study addresses some potential long term consequences like exhibiting more aggression and language problems (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/22...886.html).

While I am a functioning adult and haven't done anything horrible to anyone yet, I do occasionally struggle with depression, anxiety and feelings of low self worth. Could it be the result of being spanked as a child? I doubt it's that simple, but who knows? I think the Jesuits even say something like "give me the child for seven years, I'll give you the man," so it's pretty clear to me that things that happen while you're young can stick with you forever.

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04-11-2013, 10:35 AM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
If there is no legal measure to bring the Pearls up on charges, then it's high time someone came up with some. An instruction manual for child abuse is worse than actually abusing a child because it results in more children suffering abuse from readers who follow the instructions. These are horrible people. Angry

I don't believe in hitting a child ever for any reason, including mild spanking. It's completely ineffective as a means of changing behavior. It only teaches kids to hide their bad conduct more carefully. With most kids, if you give them a lot of positive attention right from the beginning and establish a strong relationship with them (and that means getting away from the computer, cell phone, TV, or other distractions that aren't important), then expressions of disapproval and disappointment are enough most of the time. When it's not, then stronger measures like taking away privileges for awhile, may be necessary. And, of course, continued education about what's right and wrong and why is important. Some kids will fall outside of this and be extra problematic for a variety of reasons. For those, professional advise may be necessary. But once you open the door to hitting even sometimes, you open the door to hitting when it's completely uncalled for, or worse, hitting out of anger.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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04-11-2013, 02:55 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(04-11-2013 10:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  If there is no legal measure to bring the Pearls up on charges, then it's high time someone came up with some. An instruction manual for child abuse is worse than actually abusing a child because it results in more children suffering abuse from readers who follow the instructions. These are horrible people. Angry

I don't believe in hitting a child ever for any reason, including mild spanking. It's completely ineffective as a means of changing behavior. It only teaches kids to hide their bad conduct more carefully. With most kids, if you give them a lot of positive attention right from the beginning and establish a strong relationship with them (and that means getting away from the computer, cell phone, TV, or other distractions that aren't important), then expressions of disapproval and disappointment are enough most of the time. When it's not, then stronger measures like taking away privileges for awhile, may be necessary. And, of course, continued education about what's right and wrong and why is important. Some kids will fall outside of this and be extra problematic for a variety of reasons. For those, professional advise may be necessary. But once you open the door to hitting even sometimes, you open the door to hitting when it's completely uncalled for, or worse, hitting out of anger.

Impulse - I respectfully agree with you on some points, but disagree that a slap on a behind will open the door to other abuse.

My parents spanked me, but didn't hit once I was past the age or understanding for why I was being spanked. Nor did they spank me out of anger.

I dunno. While it's not necessarily a discipline I would choose - but I'm not a parent, and I hesitate on criticizing other people's decisions.

But I do think the effects of spamming are dramatized. As I said before. A lot of us were spanked and has no "issues" because of it
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