A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
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04-11-2013, 04:02 PM (This post was last modified: 04-11-2013 04:09 PM by Impulse.)
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(04-11-2013 02:55 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 10:35 AM)Impulse Wrote:  If there is no legal measure to bring the Pearls up on charges, then it's high time someone came up with some. An instruction manual for child abuse is worse than actually abusing a child because it results in more children suffering abuse from readers who follow the instructions. These are horrible people. Angry

I don't believe in hitting a child ever for any reason, including mild spanking. It's completely ineffective as a means of changing behavior. It only teaches kids to hide their bad conduct more carefully. With most kids, if you give them a lot of positive attention right from the beginning and establish a strong relationship with them (and that means getting away from the computer, cell phone, TV, or other distractions that aren't important), then expressions of disapproval and disappointment are enough most of the time. When it's not, then stronger measures like taking away privileges for awhile, may be necessary. And, of course, continued education about what's right and wrong and why is important. Some kids will fall outside of this and be extra problematic for a variety of reasons. For those, professional advise may be necessary. But once you open the door to hitting even sometimes, you open the door to hitting when it's completely uncalled for, or worse, hitting out of anger.

Impulse - I respectfully agree with you on some points, but disagree that a slap on a behind will open the door to other abuse.

My parents spanked me, but didn't hit once I was past the age or understanding for why I was being spanked. Nor did they spank me out of anger.

I dunno. While it's not necessarily a discipline I would choose - but I'm not a parent, and I hesitate on criticizing other people's decisions.

But I do think the effects of spamming are dramatized. As I said before. A lot of us were spanked and has no "issues" because of it
I too was spanked - even paddled occasionally - and don't believe I have issues because of it. My parents eventually stopped because they decided it was wrong, but I was close to 10 years old by then.

It may not open the door to abuse by everyone and I wasn't implying that it would open the door to deliberate abuse by anyone. My point was that once you allow it at all, it's too easy to spank when you're angry. In fact, when you're angry is precisely when you are most likely to spank. And, when you're angry, you may hit a little harder than you mean to or would do at another time when you're not angry. So why take the chance?

Some will say we should take the chance because some situations really call for a spanking. But I would argue that the research shows spanking is completely ineffective at changing behavior. So that means resorting to spanking not only doesn't work, but when it's used, an opportunity is lost to employ something else that may have a better influence on behavior.

Shaping children's behavior needs to be carried out every day, not just when they are bad. And, when parents do that, situations where the question about spanking arises will be few and far between anyway.

Edit:
I should add though that I don't disrespect or judge anyone who spanks in the manner that you are referring too. It has been such a common practice that it doesn't take an immoral person to spank their child by any means. But I do consider it "old school" because it's based on outdated beliefs and practices that haven't held up to research which has tested it's effectiveness. When parents pull out the belt though, that's entirely another matter.

"Religion has caused more misery to all of mankind in every stage of human history than any other single idea." --Madalyn Murray O'Hair
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04-11-2013, 05:43 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(03-11-2013 06:35 PM)sporehux Wrote:  your options are bulshit, I hope it was based in a hypothetical world where all parents are cunts, for your sake.

How about the most common forms of discipline being used today,
At least in most civilised countries, " nagging "

Child is never told they are useless or stupid when then do bad things, they are sat down and lectured to with moral reasoning, grounded and restricted from there favorite items and pastimes.
Thus when they are older they, can see that the (non corporal) punishments were for the greater good and there was a logical argument for everything they did wrong. not just "because i say so".

There is NEVER any reason to hit kids, only the emotionally unbalanced are still defending it.

Wow, you are just ridiculous. Those "options" weren't said as "You can either raise your kid this way or that way". Maybe your problem is a selective hearing issue? You know, you take something and twist it into what you want it to be? For example: Somebody says "That western movie we watched yesterday was terrible." Then you turn around and say "He said that all western movies are terrible and everyone that likes western movies is an idiot!"

So, let me try to reiterate my point so that you will understand it:

I said that there is a difference between spanking a kid and beating a kid, and that it is ridiculous that a parent who spanks a kid for stealing is lambasted and looked at as equivalent to somebody who beats the living crap out of their kid, while parents who verbally abuse their kids basically get a free pass. When I say verbal abuse, I'm not talking to somebody who simply yells at their kid for doing something they shouldn't be doing. That is not abuse. By verbal abuse I mean somebody who constantly puts their kid down and makes them feel worthless.

Verbal abuse actually causes far more psychological damage than physical abuse does. People who have parents that took physical punishment too far, but care about them, tend to have far less psychological issues than people who grew up in homes where they were belittled and made to feel that they could do nothing right and were worthless.

Myself and all of my friends were raised by parents that occasionally spanked, but only for really bad situations (like stealing or hurting other people) and nobody ended up with any mental issues in adulthood. We all understood that our parents loved us and that we were only being disciplined for bad behavior. When our parents yelled at us, it was for a good reason.

I have visited many countries and have seen spanking to be pretty common, and those places were full of very nice, good-hearted people. Those people weren't a bunch of savages living in some uncivilized world. Your logic that every parent who spanks a kid is a "cunt" is incredibly self-righteous. In fact, you sound just like some Bible thumper ranting about how people who don't share their beliefs are heathens. Just because your dad was abusive doesn't make every parent that uses spanking as a form of discipline a "cunt".

You think that when it comes to spanking or verbally reprimanding a kid that there is no line between discipline and abuse, and I don't agree with that at all, but I'm not going to curse at you and call you names. My dad always told me that you should never go down the road of making personal insults in a debate, because if a person has to result to personal insults in a debate then it only means that the person does not have the consideration to have a civil debate, or that they have lost and are trying to save face and you should not let them drag you down to that level. So, I'm going to take his advice and not go down that road.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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04-11-2013, 05:53 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(04-11-2013 05:43 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  never go down the road of making personal insults in a debate, because if a person has to result to personal insults in a debate then it only means that the person does not have the consideration to have a civil debate, or that they have lost and are trying to save face and you should not let them drag you down to that level. So, I'm going to take his advice and not go down that road.

Ok, I appologised a few posts back,But again, sorry for flying off at you "emotional red flag issue"

I still think corporal punishment is too negative in every instance, there are always other options.

Theism is to believe what other people claim, Atheism is to ask "why should I".
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04-11-2013, 05:58 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(04-11-2013 07:20 AM)sporehux Wrote:  Ah in hindsight i was a little harsh in my rebuttal to WindyCityJazz , im sure they meant no beatings style punishment.
my bad (sorry, hitchens moment), i was admittedly pro tap smack at one point.

But i still stand by zero smackage. I personally viewed my beatings as torture from a bully, not punishment for my wrong doings.
What if your kid shrugs off your little smack, how hard do you re-smack, and for how long. a very young child would not know the smack was for what they were doing.

I'm not claiming to be a great parent but i think my discipline system works well (at least with my daughters, they would probably rather a smack than my mind games/)

Bad deed done, daughter has 30 minutes to pick her own punishment, if i deem it appropriate than so be it, other wise she gets my punishment, "EMP" is the most extreme, zero electronics and grounded. no mobile phone is worth a thousand smacks.

http://www.apa.org/monitor/2012/04/spanking.aspx

“Physical punishment doesn’t work to get kids to comply, so parents think they have to keep escalating it. That is why it is so dangerous,”
Spanking doesn’t work, says Alan Kazdin, PhD, a Yale University psychology professor and director of the Yale Parenting Center and Child Conduct Clinic. “You cannot punish out these behaviors that you do not want,” says Kazdin, who served as APA president in 2008. “There is no need for corporal punishment based on the research. We are not giving up an effective technique. We are saying this is a horrible thing that does not work.”

I already responded to your previous post because I didn't read farther down after reading it. Of course I meant that beatings were not an acceptable form of punishment. I made that pretty clear, and was saying that there is a big difference between spanking a kid and beating a kid, and that it's ridiculous that people who verbally abuse their kids basically get a free pass. A LITTLE harsh? Let's just say I would never result to speaking to others the way you responded. When you call people who use spanking as a form of discipline uncivilized, and then resort to personal attacks and calling people "cunts", I'd say that's pretty damn hypocritical and you should probably look up the word "civilized" in the dictionary.

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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04-11-2013, 05:59 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(04-11-2013 05:53 PM)sporehux Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 05:43 PM)WindyCityJazz Wrote:  never go down the road of making personal insults in a debate, because if a person has to result to personal insults in a debate then it only means that the person does not have the consideration to have a civil debate, or that they have lost and are trying to save face and you should not let them drag you down to that level. So, I'm going to take his advice and not go down that road.

Ok, I appologised a few posts back,But again, sorry for flying off at you "emotional red flag issue"

I still think corporal punishment is too negative in every instance, there are always other options.

Apology accepted

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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04-11-2013, 06:08 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(04-11-2013 09:54 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  When I was growing up I had a combination of spankings and restrictions. I'm not totally against smacking kids around a little bit, sometimes they need a shock. I don't have kids of my own, maybe if I ever do my opinions will change. But I'm the oldest of three and I babysat my siblings a lot. I took some of my parents strategies and mixed them with a few of my own to make those little snots be nice to each other. I wasn't afraid to pop them in the mouth if they said something rude or inappropriate, and if they started bickering I'd put them in the laundry room and stand by the door until I heard them apologize to each other and promise to be nice.
As for what my parents did, my mom used to wear flat sandals and she'd threaten to take her shoe off and beat our butts with it. It happened a few times, and mostly to my little brother who was the snottiest of all of us when he was a kid. My dad would spank us with his belt, but not that often. That was for serious offenses. And there was always a long talk involved before we actually got spanked, that was the most dreaded part! It usually started with the offending child being sent to his or her room to think about what they did, which also gave time for the angry parent to cool off. My parents didn't hit us angrily, they would come in and ask us "do you know why you're in trouble? What should you have done instead? What are you going to do next time? Etc." and then when we'd had our conversation, dad would say ok, stand up, turn around, put your hands on the bed. And then get a few good licks.
I don't think it scarred me as a kid, I'm a perfectly sound adult and I think spanking has it's place in raising children. But like I said, I'm not a mom, so things might change if I ever become one.

This was basically my parents strategy at home (in public it was to the bathroom get spanked and out again, then repeat the process with the talk when we got home).
While it makes sense, the same strategy minus the actual physical punishment works just as well if not better. My oldest was spanked when she was younger. My exhusband hated that I refused the use of a belt (or any other object) and I banned him from doing the spanking after the first time he did it.
I don't know how you will feel when you have your own kids, but for me it was like a little part of me died every time I hurt my baby. She probably doesn't even remember it, but I do and I am so glad that my life has changed. Kids are super smart and they want to impress us. I think sending them to their room to think about it is perfect. You now have time to think about exactly what you will say. Then you go and have a talk with them and make sure they understand where they went wrong and how they can do better. The spanking at the end (this just my personal opinion) just tells them that you think they are bad, it is useless. I always like to reassure my kids that I don't think they're bad. Maybe they did a bad thing, but they're still good kids.
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04-11-2013, 10:52 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(04-11-2013 06:08 PM)LostandInsecure Wrote:  
(04-11-2013 09:54 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  When I was growing up I had a combination of spankings and restrictions. I'm not totally against smacking kids around a little bit, sometimes they need a shock. I don't have kids of my own, maybe if I ever do my opinions will change. But I'm the oldest of three and I babysat my siblings a lot. I took some of my parents strategies and mixed them with a few of my own to make those little snots be nice to each other. I wasn't afraid to pop them in the mouth if they said something rude or inappropriate, and if they started bickering I'd put them in the laundry room and stand by the door until I heard them apologize to each other and promise to be nice.
As for what my parents did, my mom used to wear flat sandals and she'd threaten to take her shoe off and beat our butts with it. It happened a few times, and mostly to my little brother who was the snottiest of all of us when he was a kid. My dad would spank us with his belt, but not that often. That was for serious offenses. And there was always a long talk involved before we actually got spanked, that was the most dreaded part! It usually started with the offending child being sent to his or her room to think about what they did, which also gave time for the angry parent to cool off. My parents didn't hit us angrily, they would come in and ask us "do you know why you're in trouble? What should you have done instead? What are you going to do next time? Etc." and then when we'd had our conversation, dad would say ok, stand up, turn around, put your hands on the bed. And then get a few good licks.
I don't think it scarred me as a kid, I'm a perfectly sound adult and I think spanking has it's place in raising children. But like I said, I'm not a mom, so things might change if I ever become one.

This was basically my parents strategy at home (in public it was to the bathroom get spanked and out again, then repeat the process with the talk when we got home).
While it makes sense, the same strategy minus the actual physical punishment works just as well if not better. My oldest was spanked when she was younger. My exhusband hated that I refused the use of a belt (or any other object) and I banned him from doing the spanking after the first time he did it.
I don't know how you will feel when you have your own kids, but for me it was like a little part of me died every time I hurt my baby. She probably doesn't even remember it, but I do and I am so glad that my life has changed. Kids are super smart and they want to impress us. I think sending them to their room to think about it is perfect. You now have time to think about exactly what you will say. Then you go and have a talk with them and make sure they understand where they went wrong and how they can do better. The spanking at the end (this just my personal opinion) just tells them that you think they are bad, it is useless. I always like to reassure my kids that I don't think they're bad. Maybe they did a bad thing, but they're still good kids.

I can definitely agree with this. It's the discussion that improves behavior more than the spanking itself. But like others have said, it's effective when the child is old enough to have a discussion.

When my siblings and I got older, my parents started giving us the option of spanking or restriction. Haha we started choosing spanking all the time and then that option disappeared! We gave ourselves away on what the worse punishment would be. I think that's telling!
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04-11-2013, 11:10 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(04-11-2013 10:52 PM)Colourcraze Wrote:  I can definitely agree with this. It's the discussion that improves behavior more than the spanking itself. But like others have said, it's effective when the child is old enough to have a discussion.

You'd be amazed how smart kids are! I personally think if a baby is too young to have a discussion, then they are certainly too young for discipline. My youngest is 1. I like to practice distraction with her. If she doesn't something I don't want her to do, I just tell her no no and then I direct her to something she can do. It works for us. Smile

Quote:When my siblings and I got older, my parents started giving us the option of spanking or restriction. Haha we started choosing spanking all the time and then that option disappeared! We gave ourselves away on what the worse punishment would be. I think that's telling!

Lol!
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04-11-2013, 11:47 PM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(03-11-2013 05:58 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I guess the sad thing here is not the pearls. Not at the heart of it. At the heart of it is the ability of some people to be taken so easily by anyone seeking to manipulate them. Our pack nature is a double edged sword. On the one hand, some people are born leaders and there are born followers. (If everyone was alpha, there would be no pack, no cooperation). Trouble is - nature forgot to instill a bullshit meter mechanism into the followers to be able to determine when their leader is leading them off a cliff.

The type of people who keep snake oil salesmen in business. If it wasn't the pearls, it would be PETA or something.

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=3688563
Like these people. No bullshit meter to know that the police wouldn't instruct a civilian to do anything via phone.

If we squashed the pearls - another cockroach would take their place. Making education available and accessible to everyone is the only way to erode religion. We can't ever make it go away, the same as we can't rid the world of psychopaths and mental illness.

Atheism or deism is growing. I know it doesn't feel like that, but eventually science and technology will make god completely obsolete. Or we will kill ourselves in WW3 and god will be obsolete by default.

After read that, I'll just say that I would be willing to do naked jumping jacks for 2 hours then perform a 'sexual act' if it got me 5 million dollars. Just sayin'...

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05-11-2013, 05:43 AM
RE: A Textbook Example of Why Religion is Dangerous
(04-11-2013 11:47 PM)EvolutionKills Wrote:  
(03-11-2013 05:58 PM)Cathym112 Wrote:  I guess the sad thing here is not the pearls. Not at the heart of it. At the heart of it is the ability of some people to be taken so easily by anyone seeking to manipulate them. Our pack nature is a double edged sword. On the one hand, some people are born leaders and there are born followers. (If everyone was alpha, there would be no pack, no cooperation). Trouble is - nature forgot to instill a bullshit meter mechanism into the followers to be able to determine when their leader is leading them off a cliff.

The type of people who keep snake oil salesmen in business. If it wasn't the pearls, it would be PETA or something.

http://abcnews.go.com/m/story?id=3688563
Like these people. No bullshit meter to know that the police wouldn't instruct a civilian to do anything via phone.

If we squashed the pearls - another cockroach would take their place. Making education available and accessible to everyone is the only way to erode religion. We can't ever make it go away, the same as we can't rid the world of psychopaths and mental illness.

Atheism or deism is growing. I know it doesn't feel like that, but eventually science and technology will make god completely obsolete. Or we will kill ourselves in WW3 and god will be obsolete by default.

After read that, I'll just say that I would be willing to do naked jumping jacks for 2 hours then perform a 'sexual act' if it got me 5 million dollars. Just sayin'...

When a man says naked jumping jacks, all I can picture is his dangle flopping around like a epileptic at a discotheque and I am easily amused. just sayin'....:-)
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