A Theist's Defiance of Logic
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12-04-2013, 10:28 AM
A Theist's Defiance of Logic
Like many fellow atheists, I have those FB friends who insist on posting what they consider as profound statements to support their theistic beliefs. Usually, it's just unsubstantial drivel, but just recently I finally read one that actually makes sense, to a point.

The following is a quote from Peter Kreeft. I really enjoy how he exposes the theists defiance of logic at the end, stating that atheists instead are somehow psychologically impaired.
Enjoy!



Quote:"Someone once said that if you sat a million monkeys at a million typewriters for a million years, one of them would eventually type out all of Hamlet by chance. But when we find the text of Hamlet, we don't wonder whether it came from chance and monkeys. Why then does the atheist use that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe? Clearly, because it is his only chance of remaining an atheist. At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe."
- Peter Kreeft

So, if I understand this guy correctly, he thinks people who choose to explain the existence of the universe using scientific observations and measurable data are somehow nuts for not using Genesis as the absolute authoritative source. And he thinks I'm the one who needs his head examined? Rolleyes
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12-04-2013, 10:38 AM
RE: A Theist's Defiance of Logic
So... he's saying that atheism leads to the belief in evolution and the belief in evolution does not lead to atheism.

I'm inclined to agree. Evolution does not lead to atheism.

However, his proposal is incredibly flawed. Evolution isn't the only factor that can influence atheism. There are literally hundreds of things that can.

His proposition is also biased, as he believes he is correct and those that don't believe as he does are incorrect. This is a fallacy and a matter of opinion; not an absolute.

An atheist can say that a Christian needs a psychological explanation as to why he is a Christian just as easy as a Christian saying that an atheist needs one.

I would agree with you that this is theist drivel... insulting... and biased.

smh

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12-04-2013, 11:04 AM
RE: A Theist's Defiance of Logic
Actually, it was my rejection of creationism and acceptance of evolution (cosmic, geological, and biological) years ago that strongly influenced my transition from theism (Protestant) towards atheism.
Once it became clear that an objective analysis of the first chapters of Genesis led me to conclude that the idea of divine creation, as presented and taught by the various Christian sects, was completely lacking of logic and intellectual credibility, the rest of the foundation for my theism began to quickly crumble away.
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12-04-2013, 11:08 AM
RE: A Theist's Defiance of Logic
(12-04-2013 11:04 AM)Rebel Wrote:  Actually, it was my rejection of creationism and acceptance of evolution (cosmic, geological, and biological) years ago that strongly influenced my transition from theism (Protestant) towards atheism.
Once it became clear that an objective analysis of the first chapters of Genesis led me to conclude that the idea of divine creation, as presented and taught by the various Christian sects, was completely lacking of logic and intellectual credibility, the rest of the foundation for my theism began to quickly crumble away.

You misunderstand.

I'm referring to an absolute as he implies.

That is, evolution leads to atheism 100% of the time.

The fact that there are Theistic Evolutionists and Evolutionary Creationists defy this claim.

I don't doubt that it can lead to atheism, but it's not the sole route.

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12-04-2013, 11:17 AM
RE: A Theist's Defiance of Logic
(12-04-2013 11:08 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  
(12-04-2013 11:04 AM)Rebel Wrote:  Actually, it was my rejection of creationism and acceptance of evolution (cosmic, geological, and biological) years ago that strongly influenced my transition from theism (Protestant) towards atheism.
Once it became clear that an objective analysis of the first chapters of Genesis led me to conclude that the idea of divine creation, as presented and taught by the various Christian sects, was completely lacking of logic and intellectual credibility, the rest of the foundation for my theism began to quickly crumble away.

You misunderstand.

I'm referring to an absolute as he implies.

That is, evolution leads to atheism 100% of the time.

The fact that there are Theistic Evolutionists and Evolutionary Creationists defy this claim.

I don't doubt that it can lead to atheism, but it's not the sole route.

It depends on how compartmentalised their thinking is. When followed to it's ultimate end evolution does seem to imply that no god is necessary and does give lie the the basis of christianity. That original sin thing is required for Christianity to work other wise what was the human sacrafice for? Evolution debunks the Adam and Eve story completely. Cognitive dissonance is required to keep the faith when confronted with science even KC has said his God doesn't make sense unless you have faith.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
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12-04-2013, 11:33 AM
RE: A Theist's Defiance of Logic
No

Actually the flaw is that he states that "the atheist use[s] that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe"

This is actually the creationist argument.

Evolution created Hamlet (physically and literary) with a finite number of optimising steps.

Smile

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12-04-2013, 11:38 AM
RE: A Theist's Defiance of Logic
You ought not be surprised about his (and them) trying to use the 'mentally disturbed' mantra or similar accusations on us. It's merely what is termed 'psychological projection'. IE - they're projecting their own behavior onto everyone else.

"that which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence" Christopher Hitchens
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12-04-2013, 11:41 PM
RE: A Theist's Defiance of Logic
Quote:"Reason is the greatest enemy that faith has; it never comes to the aid of spiritual things, but more frequently than not struggles against the divine Word, treating with contempt all that emanates from God." - Martin Luther

Quote:"Someone once said that if you sat a million monkeys at a million typewriters for a million years, one of them would eventually type out all of Hamlet by chance. But when we find the text of Hamlet, we don't wonder whether it came from chance and monkeys. Why then does the atheist use that incredibly improbable explanation for the universe? Clearly, because it is his only chance of remaining an atheist. At this point we need a psychological explanation of the atheist rather than a logical explanation of the universe."
- Peter Kreeft
This argument comes from someone who does not understand the Theory of Evolution. While chance does play a part the primary driver behind evolution is natural selection.

Suppose that instead of wanting a million monkeys to write Hamlet we want just one monkey to draw a royal flush from a deck of cards. We set up a situation with two machines at opposite ends of the monkey's cage. At one end is a card dealing machine, at the other a food dispensing machine. We train the monkey so it knows that if it puts a card into the dealing machine it will get another card. If it puts a card into the food dispensing machine it might get some food, or it might get the card back. The dealing machine gives the monkey his first card gratis. What happens next depends on what the monkey does with the card. He can either take it to the food machine or give it back to the dealing machine and get another card. Some cards are rejected by the food machine. Eventually he learns that the machine only accepts cards with hearts on them. He also learns that face cards, aces and tens are always accepted, and all others will be rejected. Eventually he develops a behavior which leads rather quickly to him offering the food machine a royal flush every time.

The card dealing machine represents chance. The food machine is natural selection. While the dealer machine is necessary it is the food machine that drives the whole process. This is the way evolution works. Chance plays a part but on balance the whole process is anything but random.

Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice Is also great
And would suffice. -- Robert Frost
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13-04-2013, 01:49 AM
Re: RE: A Theist's Defiance of Logic
(12-04-2013 11:08 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You misunderstand.

I'm referring to an absolute as he implies.

That is, evolution leads to atheism 100% of the time.

The fact that there are Theistic Evolutionists and Evolutionary Creationists defy this claim.

I don't doubt that it can lead to atheism, but it's not the sole route.
What you're saying becomes even more apparent when you consider that there were atheists long before Darwin was even born.
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13-04-2013, 07:19 AM
RE: A Theist's Defiance of Logic
(12-04-2013 11:08 AM)kingschosen Wrote:  You misunderstand.

I'm referring to an absolute as he implies.

That is, evolution leads to atheism 100% of the time.
No such luck.Rolleyes

Some say the world will end in fire, Some say in ice.
From what I've tasted of desire I hold with those who favor fire.
But if it had to perish twice, I think I know enough of hate
To say that for destruction ice Is also great
And would suffice. -- Robert Frost
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