A Universe From Nothing
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12-07-2012, 05:30 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
Fallacy: Something from nothing makes no sense in our minds, so there must have been something else first...a creator.
We are trying to describe the universe with our small immature brains in a language inadequate to do so.
That said, we should stop thinking of something from nothing as a bases point.
It's more like we have something, we are trying to describe it and how it got here and we don't know that much.
We get closer every day, but it is a long road to travel.
We may never get to the conclusion regardless of time spent because of our mental limitations.
Our understanding of the universe can be explained in just three words: "We don't know".

The old gods are dead, let's invent some new ones before something really bad happens.
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12-07-2012, 07:06 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(11-07-2012 05:16 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(11-07-2012 05:02 PM)ClydeLee Wrote:  I wouldn't say Krauss redefines the word "nothing" but rather he describes it in the only way we could scientifically.

In the matter of physics, there is no absolutely non anything possible ever, that we can examine. Without any bit of evidence we could ever use to judge of something, it's difficult to say it's likely real. You can go and deal with it in theoretical fields even beyond the ideas of his nothing. It still doesn't explain how to know if, when, or how exactly a total nothing exists.
My first question is - Since Krauss "redefines" the word "nothing", then is it wrong to say it means 'not anything'?
Second - Is there only one definition of "nothing", or are we looking at more definitions?

It's interesting that Krauss states that there are "different kinds of nothing".
In order for there to be another kind of something, there has to be something there in order for there to be a different kind of it.
There are different kinds of cupcakes, there are different kinds of trees, but if you're going to say there are different kinds of nothing and say that you are not redefining said word, then you are either trying to fit something into your vocabulary, or there is a misunderstanding.

Next thing I am wondering is, if this nothing really is something (because, like you said, a literal nothing cannot be observed or imagined correctly), then this nothing/something requires explanation.

I guess we'll see in the future if Krauss or someone else can explain where... nothing came from.
I would argue that conventional science already disproves the majority of interpretations of any deity. Perhaps a Deistic deity might still exist, but the more dogmatic explanations, such as Christianity, are already horribly wrong.

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12-07-2012, 07:55 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 05:30 AM)Thomas Wrote:  Fallacy: Something from nothing makes no sense in our minds, so there must have been something else first...a creator.
We are trying to describe the universe with our small immature brains in a language inadequate to do so.
That said, we should stop thinking of something from nothing as a bases point.
It's more like we have something, we are trying to describe it and how it got here and we don't know that much.
We get closer every day, but it is a long road to travel.
We may never get to the conclusion regardless of time spent because of our mental limitations.
Our understanding of the universe can be explained in just three words: "We don't know".


You described a common fallacy, but did not describe where I'm coming from.
First, I'm asking more questions than making any claims. The question of where does this or that come from is a good question to ask.

It's good that many people like yourself are honest in saying that there are "We don't know's" about the Universe.
There are also many like myself that, using what I see as evidence (Not proof), infer something with intelligence or intent.
This notion, being often ridiculed, is still my line of logic.
I don't believe it makes me less intelligent to see something from observation that others do not.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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12-07-2012, 08:11 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 07:55 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(12-07-2012 05:30 AM)Thomas Wrote:  Fallacy: Something from nothing makes no sense in our minds, so there must have been something else first...a creator.
We are trying to describe the universe with our small immature brains in a language inadequate to do so.
That said, we should stop thinking of something from nothing as a bases point.
It's more like we have something, we are trying to describe it and how it got here and we don't know that much.
We get closer every day, but it is a long road to travel.
We may never get to the conclusion regardless of time spent because of our mental limitations.
Our understanding of the universe can be explained in just three words: "We don't know".


You described a common fallacy, but did not describe where I'm coming from.
First, I'm asking more questions than making any claims. The question of where does this or that come from is a good question to ask.

It's good that many people like yourself are honest in saying that there are "We don't know's" about the Universe.
There are also many like myself that, using what I see as evidence (Not proof), infer something with intelligence or intent.
This notion, being often ridiculed, is still my line of logic.
I don't believe it makes me less intelligent to see something from observation that others do not.
You are making an assumption that the universe is with intelligence and intent that you should be weary of. It is a big leap, and as of right now, can't stand up to scrutiny. If you still want to posit a being that created the universe, you would be a deist. I still don't get why you don't regress into a deistic mindset, it seems that this is the thing that makes you believe in a diety, but it shouldn't make you believe in a Christian inspired deity.

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12-07-2012, 08:23 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 07:55 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(12-07-2012 05:30 AM)Thomas Wrote:  Fallacy: Something from nothing makes no sense in our minds, so there must have been something else first...a creator.
We are trying to describe the universe with our small immature brains in a language inadequate to do so.
That said, we should stop thinking of something from nothing as a bases point.
It's more like we have something, we are trying to describe it and how it got here and we don't know that much.
We get closer every day, but it is a long road to travel.
We may never get to the conclusion regardless of time spent because of our mental limitations.
Our understanding of the universe can be explained in just three words: "We don't know".


You described a common fallacy, but did not describe where I'm coming from.
First, I'm asking more questions than making any claims. The question of where does this or that come from is a good question to ask.

It's good that many people like yourself are honest in saying that there are "We don't know's" about the Universe.
There are also many like myself that, using what I see as evidence (Not proof), infer something with intelligence or intent.
This notion, being often ridiculed, is still my line of logic.
I don't believe it makes me less intelligent to see something from observation that others do not.
There is not even credible evidence of an intelligence behind things - you appear to just be making the argument from ignorance. Just because you don't see the naturalistic explanation or can't accept not knowing, you leap to the unwarranted inference of intelligent causation.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-07-2012, 10:20 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 08:23 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is not even credible evidence of an intelligence behind things - you appear to just be making the argument from ignorance. Just because you don't see the naturalistic explanation or can't accept not knowing, you leap to the unwarranted inference of intelligent causation.


So far, I gather that you would agree that there is only intelligence behind things created by human beings on this only planet, but as far as everything else outside our solar system, intelligence had no part in the presence of a massive cosmos. Sounds like us humans are intensively unique to this entire universe. Either that, or intelligence has no uniqueness and is just organized chemical reactions.

As far as argument from ignorance - you're saying the universe was either caused into existence by a natural cause (a cause which would need explanation) or was self-created.
I am saying that from observing things around me, it's more logical to believe that something with intelligence is required for there to be anything at all.

If anything, we're both going off of ignorance, but just enough ignorance to make an inference.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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12-07-2012, 10:38 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
no, you are placing something for which there is no evidence into the areas of ignorance. That is wrong.

As far as we can observe (at least what our governments are telling us ;-)) there is no evidence of an intelligent maker outside our solar system. big difference from what you said.

For years the "canals" of mars were pointed to as perhaps being the product of design. ooops, not at all. Don't force design until you have done the appropriate research and gained the necessary understanding. Shoehorning a designer in is lazy.
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12-07-2012, 10:48 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 10:20 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(12-07-2012 08:23 AM)Chas Wrote:  There is not even credible evidence of an intelligence behind things - you appear to just be making the argument from ignorance. Just because you don't see the naturalistic explanation or can't accept not knowing, you leap to the unwarranted inference of intelligent causation.


So far, I gather that you would agree that there is only intelligence behind things created by human beings on this only planet, but as far as everything else outside our solar system, intelligence had no part in the presence of a massive cosmos. Sounds like us humans are intensively unique to this entire universe. Either that, or intelligence has no uniqueness and is just organized chemical reactions.

As far as argument from ignorance - you're saying the universe was either caused into existence by a natural cause (a cause which would need explanation) or was self-created.
I am saying that from observing things around me, it's more logical to believe that something with intelligence is required for there to be anything at all.

If anything, we're both going off of ignorance, but just enough ignorance to make an inference.
What is 'self-created' and how is that different from natural cause?

Intelligence is an emergent property from complexity. There are animals of various levels of intelligence on earth, humans, apes, dolphins, dogs, an so on. There are likely other intelligence beings in the universe.

Physicists have shown that 'nothing' is likely unstable and that something will emerge - it is the nature of the universe. The leap to there having to have a creator is what is the argument from ignorance and the failure of imagination.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-07-2012, 10:50 AM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2012 10:55 AM by Vosur.)
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 10:20 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I am saying that from observing things around me, it's more logical to believe that something with intelligence is required for there to be anything at all.
Now that's a creative idea. Drinking Beverage Do you think intelligence was involved in the evolutionary process as well? And where did this intelligent being come from in the first place?

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12-07-2012, 01:08 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 10:20 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I am saying that from observing things around me, it's more logical to believe that something with intelligence is required for there to be anything at all.

Back in the day, people believed that an intelligence was required for there to be lightning and thunder.
They saw intelligence in the seasons and in the way that the sun rose and set in a particular order.
They tracked the stars and saw intelligence in them as well.
All the things they couldn't explain, they logically saw an intelligence.

Is there an intelligence behind the eruption of a volcano ? If you say "No, we know that volcano's are a natural phenomenon"
And I'm going to tell you that the universe erupting, expanding as it does, is a natural phenomenon.

As far as we know, a natural event is needed to bring about intelligent life (us).
We are natural beings born in this universe. Our intelligence is a product of the natural circumstances in the universe.

Intelligence had never been a requirement for nature to exist. Nature did just fine without us for several billion years and will continue on without us.
We are beings of a limited intelligence and when we can't understand something, we have this knee jerk reaction to fill the gap.

If you insist that an intelligence MUST be required in a natural process, then by all means, begin placing all the old gods of thunder & lightning back on the mantle.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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