A Universe From Nothing
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12-07-2012, 01:14 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
How about he define intelligence first, and the explain how that acted "before" time was created.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-07-2012, 01:23 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 01:14 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  How about he define intelligence first, and the explain how that acted "before" time was created.
Yeah, huh? Getting a good idea of what intelligence isn't, that's for sure. Big Grin

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12-07-2012, 03:52 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 01:08 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Our intelligence is a product of the natural circumstances in the universe.


Intelligence had never been a requirement for nature to exist. Nature did just fine without us for several billion years and will continue on without us.
We are beings of a limited intelligence and when we can't understand something, we have this knee jerk reaction to fill the gap.

If you insist that an intelligence MUST be required in a natural process, then by all means, begin placing all the old gods of thunder & lightning back on the mantle.
I didn't imply that nature required human beings to exist. That would be about as fallacious as the universe creating itself, since that would require the universe to already exist outside of time.

It seems that you're against the idea of 'intelligence' only because it leads to a character defined in what you would call a fairy tale (bias).

If I were to only give the notion of just 'intelligence' and leave the rest open, is it just because of human history that you would take that only category and trash it?
Not even mentioning that it could be God, god, Zeus or Aether, maybe you can explain why intelligence is not a viable option for consideration when evaluating what could have caused matter, time or energy to exist.

I don't insist that intelligence must be required, I insist that, given the evidence that science and philosophy provide, intelligence seems more viable.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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12-07-2012, 04:04 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 03:52 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(12-07-2012 01:08 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Our intelligence is a product of the natural circumstances in the universe.


Intelligence had never been a requirement for nature to exist. Nature did just fine without us for several billion years and will continue on without us.
We are beings of a limited intelligence and when we can't understand something, we have this knee jerk reaction to fill the gap.

If you insist that an intelligence MUST be required in a natural process, then by all means, begin placing all the old gods of thunder & lightning back on the mantle.
I didn't imply that nature required human beings to exist. That would be about as fallacious as the universe creating itself, since that would require the universe to already exist outside of time.

It seems that you're against the idea of 'intelligence' only because it leads to a character defined in what you would call a fairy tale (bias).

If I were to only give the notion of just 'intelligence' and leave the rest open, is it just because of human history that you would take that only category and trash it?
Not even mentioning that it could be God, god, Zeus or Aether, maybe you can explain why intelligence is not a viable option for consideration when evaluating what could have caused matter, time or energy to exist.

I don't insist that intelligence must be required, I insist that, given the evidence that science and philosophy provide, intelligence seems more viable.
The scientific evidence doesn't point to an intelligence. Look at geology or evolution or astronomy or anything - no design, no order, no purpose that requires intelligence.

The big issue, however, is the one of infinite regress. Where did the originating intelligence come from? What was its creator? And so on, ad infinitum.

Please present something that makes "intelligence seems more viable".
From an evolutionary point of view, intelligence seems more vile.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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12-07-2012, 05:21 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
Which came first, the flower or the gardener ? A flower doesn't need a gardener for it to exist.

Flowers were doing fine long before there were gardeners.

On a different note. Let's look at two different events on earth.
A natural rain storm and artificial rain from a large system of sprinklers hung over a yard.
Let's all state that both of these produce the same amount of rain in the same way.

As an insect in a yard, it begins to rain. The natural and the artificial look exactly the same.
From the insects point of view, which is more viable, that's it's a natural rain storm or that it's the work of some intelligence that strung up a large system of sprinklers?

If you want you could even believe that a god created this universe as a mimicry of a natural universe with all the exact same properties.
I'm not saying that it's not possible. I'm only saying that the idea isn't very viable.

We already know that nature produced lots of life before intelligent life emerged.
How does it make any sense to say that intelligence came first before nature ?

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12-07-2012, 05:50 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 03:52 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(12-07-2012 01:08 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Our intelligence is a product of the natural circumstances in the universe.


Intelligence had never been a requirement for nature to exist. Nature did just fine without us for several billion years and will continue on without us.
We are beings of a limited intelligence and when we can't understand something, we have this knee jerk reaction to fill the gap.

If you insist that an intelligence MUST be required in a natural process, then by all means, begin placing all the old gods of thunder & lightning back on the mantle.
I didn't imply that nature required human beings to exist. That would be about as fallacious as the universe creating itself, since that would require the universe to already exist outside of time.

It seems that you're against the idea of 'intelligence' only because it leads to a character defined in what you would call a fairy tale (bias).

If I were to only give the notion of just 'intelligence' and leave the rest open, is it just because of human history that you would take that only category and trash it?
Not even mentioning that it could be God, god, Zeus or Aether, maybe you can explain why intelligence is not a viable option for consideration when evaluating what could have caused matter, time or energy to exist.

I don't insist that intelligence must be required, I insist that, given the evidence that science and philosophy provide, intelligence seems more viable.
The reason people are against the idea of intelligence is because there is no evidence of an intelligence in the way everything works that we observe, as well as, because there is no evidence anything demonstrable as intelligence has existed outside of a physical entity such as the brain.. or computer chips if you want to argue that constitutes intelligence. Unless you use of intelligence relates to something else on a universal sized scale, I'm unaware how you say philosophy or science point to external intelligence.

The rest of the God's bit is just a big joke because they all equally have the same amount of evidence on their side. The "people believe it" card is all that can be demonstrated as the case.

I posted earlier you are asking the wrong questions. Get away from this who and what nonsense. Using those words is presuming there HAS to be something, yet you argue you are not doing that. Those exact words indeed put a presumption that it is a who or a thing... Intelligence as you say. It's far form more viable than what you think because if you make an assumption, you are already limiting reality.

Did something create the initial matter, why is there energy(or what have you) popping in and out of existence, or why is this the case?

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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12-07-2012, 07:39 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
Ok, so I've posted on several pages to get some feedback with no response.
I'm getting exhausted from circling arguments and being the only Theist in the room.

That being said, I'm taking a break.
Perhaps I'll be back with my peppy self again soon Smile

If this thread dies... then I guess that's a shame. I was really excited about this, but I'm getting circular arguments and no help from my Theist buds :/

eh well

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

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12-07-2012, 08:13 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 10:20 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  As far as argument from ignorance - you're saying the universe was either caused into existence by a natural cause (a cause which would need explanation) or was self-created.
I am saying that from observing things around me, it's more logical to believe that something with intelligence is required for there to be anything at all.

If anything, we're both going off of ignorance, but just enough ignorance to make an inference.

(12-07-2012 10:20 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  Ok, so I've posted on several pages to get some feedback with no response.
I'm getting exhausted from circling arguments and being the only Theist in the room.

That being said, I'm taking a break.
Perhaps I'll be back with my peppy self again soon [Image: smile.gif]

If this thread dies... then I guess that's a shame. I was really excited about this, but I'm getting circular arguments and no help from my Theist buds :/

Wow. Do I see Pachomius' Easter Sunday ? Or is it you're just not getting the answer you had decided you wanted ?

One of the problems in every one of your posts is that you assume the universe is intuitive. (Do you even know what that means?) It is NOT, (Einstein, Dirac, Heisenberg). The fact that your brain is unreliable, ought to tell you something.




Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-07-2012, 08:17 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
Lack of affirmation for delusion does not make a circular argument.

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12-07-2012, 09:05 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
My argument for why there must be some kind of supreme intelligence controlling the universe.

When I close my eyes, all the light in the entire universe, from every galaxy to every building on earth all go out. It no longer exists.
When I open my eyes, a god of infinite power creates all the light in the universe just as it was before I closed my eyes.
If that's not proof, I don't know what is.

Also when I fall asleep at night or anytime for that matter, the universe is completely destroyed and all of it remade when I wake up.
Only a god of infinite power could accomplish this. What other rational explanation could there be ?

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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