A Universe From Nothing
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12-07-2012, 09:14 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 08:13 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  intuitive. (Do you even know what that means?)
So far, I think I've been pretty nice. I try to be as reasonable and civil as possible.
Why do you guys respond with things to imply that I'm a complete moron?

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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12-07-2012, 09:33 PM (This post was last modified: 13-07-2012 03:02 AM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 09:14 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  So far, I think I've been pretty nice. I try to be as reasonable and civil as possible.
Why do you guys respond with things to imply that I'm a complete moron?

So explain why, if the universe is not intuitive, it makes sense to posit that it needs a creator, (with no evidence other than your "intelligent" being.)

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
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12-07-2012, 09:40 PM (This post was last modified: 12-07-2012 09:48 PM by Rahn127.)
RE: A Universe From Nothing
Ideasonscribe - you have implied on several occasions that the observations we have made about natural phenomenon MUST have been the product of an intelligence. You provide no evidence of this. You provide no evidence of how a mind can exist outside of a brain, let alone outside of a universe.

Do you assert that an intelligence produces a snowflake, lightning, volcano's, earthquakes, sunspots, solar flares, the ozone layer, etc etc ?
Do you assert that an intelligence produces any of the physical laws that we observe in the universe ?

You don't have to be nice or civil, but you do have to be rational.

When you assert that some intelligence is out there because of the fact that we observe the universe to be extremely complex, isn't a rational idea.
It's wishful thinking at best. You want there to be some intelligence because you can't understand how all of this could have happened WITHOUT some divine outside influence orchestrating it all with what you see as an intelligence.

Early man didn't understand how lightning worked or what caused earthquakes or eclipses of the sun or any number of NATURAL phenomenon that we all take for granted today because we have earned that knowledge through testing, experience and evidence of what we observe in nature. We observe the universe. We can explain a great deal about it, about the expansion of it and what took place at .000000001 seconds when the singularity first exploded (for lack of a better word).

Everything else we don't know yet. That's all I can say.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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12-07-2012, 09:54 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 09:33 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  So explain why, if the universe is not intuitive, is makes sense to posit that it needs a creator, (with no evidence other than your "intelligent" being.)
I'm spent for now, and a bit discouraged at the moment.
I want to come back to this and address the points brought by you guys, but it'll be awhile. I'll have to bookmark this Thread for the time being.

Quote:Rahn127
You don't have to be nice or civil, but you do have to be rational.
In my experience conversing with Skeptics, the only way to be rational is to believe what they believe.
I try to be as rational as possible and sometimes I see people 'touching-up' their argument to fit what they believe in order to not be wrong about something. To me, that is being irrational and biased.
So if I am rational to you, I hope you can recognize it, otherwise there will be no exchange of productive conversation, and no middle ground to meet at.

I enjoy good rational discussion, and believe it or not, I enjoy admitting I'm wrong when I rationally find that I am.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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12-07-2012, 09:58 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 09:54 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  I enjoy good rational discussion, and believe it or not, I enjoy admitting I'm wrong when I rationally find that I am.

It does feel good doesn't it. Means I ain't stupid yet. Wink

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
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12-07-2012, 11:17 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 09:54 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
Quote:Rahn127
You don't have to be nice or civil, but you do have to be rational.
In my experience conversing with Skeptics, the only way to be rational is to believe what they believe.

Let's take a look at a baseball. We can feel it, weigh it, measure it in any number of ways. We can describe what it is made of and how it was constructed.
All of this evidence we can gather to show that a baseball exists and it has these properties.
We can make all kinds of rational arguments about what a baseball is and what it can do because it is extremely defined by the evidence and the physical laws in the universe in which it the baseball resides.

If you disagree about any of the properties of this baseball, then you should be able to back up your argument with evidence.
The properties of a baseball aren't a belief. It's observation of an object and the realization that this object exists and has certain values in our universe.

When you fail to observe reality and instead invent things that you can't explain or can't provide evidence for, then YES, we have a problem.
This baseball is not the third eye of some invisible god that watches you while you sleep.
It's not any other imaginative thing you can make up in your mind. It's just a baseball.

You seem to be arguing that it's something more than a baseball and you feel like you have to agree with us in order to have a discussion.
All you need to do is agree that we are both in the same universe and this universe has these set properties that we have observed.

If and when you discover something new about the universe and can show us that proof, then we will all be on your side.

This is what it means to be rational. You must be able to justify your reasons when you make a statement or assertion.
If you can't justify your reasons and you still believe it to be true, then that is irrational.
It will become rational when you can justify the reasons, when you can show evidence for the claim you are making.

I thought I was done with all this, but it looks like I'm not

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-07-2012, 05:19 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(12-07-2012 11:17 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Let's take a look at a baseball. We can feel it, weigh it, measure it in any number of ways. We can describe what it is made of and how it was constructed.
All of this evidence we can gather to show that a baseball exists and it has these properties.

When you fail to observe reality and instead invent things that you can't explain or can't provide evidence for, then YES, we have a problem.

If and when you discover something new about the universe and can show us that proof, then we will all be on your side.

This is what it means to be rational.
Exactly what I'm saying - Until I put down the notion that there is something more than the natural universe, I'm irrational.
And that's what we're all here to discuss, the irrational nature of Theism.
Cool.
Maybe I'll just go to other parts of the forum and discuss music. I can only be accused of having bad taste Tongue

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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13-07-2012, 09:32 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
Having irrational thoughts is ok in my opinion as long as you can accept that they are irrational and hopefully not let them influence your voting choices or other important decisions you make in life.
I have irrational thoughts all the time. I say "thank you" to the green light gods when the lights go my way or I'll do a magical hand gesture to turn the light green when someone else is in the car at just the right time so I won't have to slow down.
I do it so often, that it freaks out my nephew. And when it doesn't happen, no big deal. I'll get the next one.
He doesn't remember all the times I failed, but he sure remembers all the times I got it exactly right on time. It's amazing.

I make wishes upon falling stars and I truly hope my wishes come true.
I get a touch nervous when walking under a ladder.
I have an umbrella in my house that I will not open under any circumstances unless I'm on my way out the door in a rain storm.
These superstitions are well ingrained into my psyche and all are irrational.

I can get behind the idea that aliens helped to seed our planet. No evidence of that yet, but if it comes to light, cool.
But that still leaves the idea of how the alien life got started. At some point some where you have nature coming before intelligent life.
Some people have suggested that a stray rock or two from Mars may have had some influence in life starting here. Like a domino effect.

There may in fact be some cosmic gardener and the universe is simply a bloom on some cosmic flower and the small curvatures we detect on the outer most edges of our universe are grand cosmic fishes nibbling away at the fringes of our universe, but so far we haven't detected anything supernatural....ever.

We have only ever detected the natural world.

If you wish to have your god, I don't begrudge you the thought, but until that god is as self evident as the sun, I'm not going to believe.
I'll stick to my green light gods. Anything that helps me get through traffic is good in my book.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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13-07-2012, 10:18 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(13-07-2012 05:19 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  
(12-07-2012 11:17 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Let's take a look at a baseball. We can feel it, weigh it, measure it in any number of ways. We can describe what it is made of and how it was constructed.
All of this evidence we can gather to show that a baseball exists and it has these properties.

When you fail to observe reality and instead invent things that you can't explain or can't provide evidence for, then YES, we have a problem.

If and when you discover something new about the universe and can show us that proof, then we will all be on your side.

This is what it means to be rational.
Exactly what I'm saying - Until I put down the notion that there is something more than the natural universe, I'm irrational.
And that's what we're all here to discuss, the irrational nature of Theism.
Cool.
Maybe I'll just go to other parts of the forum and discuss music. I can only be accused of having bad taste Tongue
It's just the nature of reality. That what is rational, is what is demonstrable true. If you cannot back the idea behind evidence, it is irrational to believe it. You can still think it's possible for there to be things outside of what has been found so far.

That's why we will argue against someone making an assumption with something supernatural as irrational, because they are postulating something that doesn't fall in order with the laws of logic.

"Allow there to be a spectrum in all that you see" - Neil Degrasse Tyson
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13-07-2012, 10:38 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(13-07-2012 09:32 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  Having irrational thoughts is ok in my opinion as long as you can accept that they are irrational


So if I believe my thoughts to be rational whereas you believe them to be irrational, then that is not ok in your opinion?
I would never keep irrational thoughts if I knew they were irrational. I, in fact, find more rationality in what I believe about reality than what you do. I can guess that you feel the same way about your own view on reality.



(13-07-2012 09:32 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  and hopefully not let them influence your voting choices or other important decisions you make in life.

If I believe something about reality, I am going to live my life according to that reality.
If I believed that my own thoughts were irrational, I would be both insane for retaining those thoughts, and also for living life according to something I myself believe irrational.
It's because I believe my beliefs to be rational that I keep them and live accordingly.



(13-07-2012 09:32 AM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If you wish to have your god, I don't begrudge you the thought, but until that god is as self evident as the sun, I'm not going to believe.
I'll stick to my green light gods. Anything that helps me get through traffic is good in my book.


The only thing we have to go by to make an inference is the things that are self evident all around us. The way we interpret it is just different. Like two people looking at a painting, and one seeing the painting a different way than the other.
That being said, if the world were different, and I had access to all the same information and really did not find rationality in believing in something beyond nature, I would have no problem being a naturalist.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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