A Universe From Nothing
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13-07-2012, 11:41 AM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(13-07-2012 10:38 AM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  The only thing we have to go by to make an inference is the things that are self evident all around us. The way we interpret it is just different. Like two people looking at a painting, and one seeing the painting a different way than the other.
That being said, if the world were different, and I had access to all the same information and really did not find rationality in believing in something beyond nature, I would have no problem being a naturalist.
You need to learn more about the natural world. When you do, you will see that the illusion of design is just that - an illusion. Evolutionary biology is an excellent source, as is physics.

However, acquiring scientific knowledge takes work and time.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-07-2012, 12:46 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(13-07-2012 11:41 AM)Chas Wrote:  You need to learn more about the natural world. When you do, you will see that the illusion of design is just that - an illusion. Evolutionary biology is an excellent source, as is physics.

However, acquiring scientific knowledge takes work and time.


Maybe you're assuming that because I believe what I believe about the world, I just do not know enough about it.
Am I right?

Well, I definitely am no expert on things of Evolutionary Biology or Physics. I don't claim to be, and I can safely say that I will never be an expert in either of these areas. There's so much information in just Physics alone that it could take a big chunk of time out of my life just dedicated to studying Physics in order to get a good firm grasp of Physics.
I don't see this as a bad thing.
I learn as much as I can from the experts on faith that they are giving me accurate information.
There isn't much more a lay person can do.

So when you say "You need to learn more about the natural world", you're right, I do. But so do you and just about everyone else.
But don't assume that because I don't know enough about the natural world that it is the reason I believe as I do.
If anything, the more I've been learning about the natural world, the further I get from naturalism.

“What you believe to be true will control you, whether it’s true or not.”

—Jeremy LaBorde
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13-07-2012, 12:54 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
Quote:Maybe you're assuming that because I believe what I believe about the world, I just do not know enough about it.
Am I right?
Yes.

Quote:I learn as much as I can from the experts on faith that they are giving me accurate information.
There isn't much more a lay person can do.
That is exactly what I am suggesting.

Quote:So when you say "You need to learn more about the natural world", you're
right, I do. But so do you and just about everyone else.
But don't assume that because I don't know enough about the natural world that it is the reason I believe as I do.
If anything, the more I've been learning about the natural world, the further I get from naturalism.
I am saying it is precisely because you know something, but not enough, about the natural world that you are convinced by the illusion of design. Dig deeper. Read Richard Dawkins, Carl Sagan, Lawrence Krauss, and other scientists who write brilliantly for the public.

Skepticism is not a position; it is an approach to claims.
Science is not a subject, but a method.
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13-07-2012, 01:37 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
a. Your god would have had to begin creation "before" spacetime, (meaningless).
b. The universe is not logically intuitive. (Relativity, Heisenberg, Dirac). Therefore one cannot presume logic is applicable.
c. Intelligence requires time.
d. The Anthropic Principle is debunked. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mlD-CJPGt...re=related ,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rtmbcfb_rdc , http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dYphAH2tK...re=related ,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rt-UIfkcg...re=related , http://www.youtube.com/user/cdk007 , http://evolutionofdna.com/Evolution-Of-DNA.html ,http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC148579/ , http://www.dnafiles.org/node/551 , http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Models_of_DNA_evolution ,http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles/probability-life , http://www.evolutionfaq.com/articles/fiv...-evolution , http://www.evolutionfaq.com/videos/carl-sagan-evolution ,
http://www.evolutionfaq.com/videos/evolution-eye , http://video.pbs.org/video/1300397304 , http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/evolution/library/faq/ ,
http://www.dhbailey.com/papers/dhb-probability.pdf , http://www.science20.com/philosophical_s...nd_fallacy ,
http://www.science20.com/stars_planets_l...gin_chance , http://www.science20.com/science_20/evolution_evolution .

I thought we were "exhausted". I see we have our second wind.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein Certified Ancient Astronaut Theorist
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13-07-2012, 01:39 PM
RE: A Universe From Nothing
(13-07-2012 12:46 PM)ideasonscribe Wrote:  If anything, the more I've been learning about the natural world, the further I get from naturalim.
I also know many atheists who have expressed this same kind of comment when it comes to the bible.
The more they learn about the bible and religion in general, the more likely they are to become atheists.
The more education one has, the more likely a person is to be less religious.
The more you know, the less you need to believe.

So if learning about the natural world is leading you away from explanations that are natural, then obviously you won't accept the natural explanations.

Answer this one simple question. Do you believe the world to be flat ?
There are people that do. Whole societies in fact with all kinds of explanations that have no basis in reality, but they still believe.

Given all that we know about the world, there are people who score very well on intelligence tests who won't accept the natural explanations for how the world exists as an oblong like sphere, it's origins from a dust cloud and gravity to it's age geologically.

Reality isn't opinion based. It's evidence based.

In your world, a football player could come within a couple yards of the touchdown line and the referees call it a touchdown.
It doesn't match with observed reality but you would accept it because it's your favorite team and someone from authority said TOUCHDOWN.
The rest of us would be going insane because clearly he didn't make a touchdown. The instant reply shows it. We have evidence that shows no touchdown,
but in the world of theism, all that's required is your belief that something is true. You feel happy, joyous over the fact that your team just won the superbowl when it's only a pre-season game.

When you have this kind of disconnect with reality, there isn't much more I can say.

I suppose the reason why I'm more outspoken about this topic than any other is because I've always had a fascination with the universe, physics and quantum physics.
I've had University Calculus I,II & III, University Physics I, II & III, Astronomy studies since I was 10. and in reality, I don't know that much about it.
I passed all my classes, completed and understood the coursework and still yearn to learn more. I'm not a scientist. I'm not a college professor or someone who works at CERN, although that would be awesome.

What I am is someone who is passionate about science, about physics and who marvels at the universe.
When someone suggests that you might need more education on the topics, they aren't being condescending. They are really trying to be helpful.
When someone suggest that you don't know the meaning of a word, they say this because your use of the word suggests that you don't.
They are observing what you write and trying to help educate you, nothing more.

My last story. I had an ex who often would say "You don't know what the hell you're talking about. Do you have a degree in this shit ? Did you suddenly become Professor Rahn over night and I missed it ?"
Now she was condescending at times Smile but in many ways, she's right. I'm not a professional in HER field of study. She knew a lot more than me when it came to physical fitness. It was hard for me to admit that I didn't know what the hell I was talking about when it came to fitness and biochemistry of the body. All I had to go on, was what I had heard about casually in conversations and my own intuitive mind, which is often wrong.

I can be wrong about a great number of things, but all that I need do is follow the science that others have done and look at the peer review of their work and tests.
The evidence is there for all to see, refute and or repeat the experiments to add to the body of information we already have.

I can literally keep typing for the next hour, but I'll end it here. Sorry for being so long winded.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
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