A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
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07-07-2014, 12:49 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(06-07-2014 08:30 AM)RogueWarrior Wrote:  Could you record the sessions?

I thought about that and even asked my mom if she thought he'd be willing, but I regretted asking it immediately when I realized that it sounds like I'm asking to put the man on the spot and then upload my kicking his intellectual ass for all of my atheist friends to see.

With all my talk of intellectual honesty, I don't want her to get the wrong idea and think I'm not being open. I am; despite the fact that I know (to whatever extent a person can know a thing) he's not going to sway me.

Anyway, she said I'd have to discuss that with him. I'm still thinking about it. Maybe a tape recorder if a camera is too much pressure.

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07-07-2014, 12:53 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(06-07-2014 02:58 AM)DLJ Wrote:  
(06-07-2014 01:45 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  ...
she's going to be looking into setting me up with one of the elders so that he can meet with me and study the Bible.

I've decided that from the outset, I am going to lay down a single ground rule for him... I want him to demonstrate to me - without needing to rely on ANY form of faith - that Jehovah exists at all. Only if he establishes, through tangible demonstration, that there is a thing to worship in the first place, will I be willing to listen to him explain to me why I should worship it.

So…my money says it's gonna be a short study. Wink

Will update as events unfold.


Faith
Authority
Revelation
Tradition.

He'll of course appeal to those things, but I'll shoot those down as they present themselves. Providing "tangible, demonstrable" evidence of God's existence is going to be impossible, so we may not even make it that far.

Unless, of course, he decides we speak hypothetically, which I'm willing to do. (I wanna have some fun poking holes in his arguments and watching him squirm. Tongue ) Just as long as he is constantly aware that it's purely hypothetical and he's not even proved the existence of God yet.

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07-07-2014, 04:51 AM (This post was last modified: 07-07-2014 04:57 AM by Luminon.)
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
Most of my concerns were answered - you've got a game plan and escape clauses to terminate the discussion.
However, I wonder why do you still hang out with your mom. Doesn't she know that you are traumatized? It's her fault you were caught in the cult in the first place. And now she wants you to face the wrongdoers. Does she give a fuck about how you feel? Apparently not - so I have no idea why do you still want to win some respect from her, such as respect to your intellectual integrity. She seems to have no respect to you. Even if you win, what will that change with her? Somehow I don't think she will respect your logic, arguments, reason and your decisions to abide by them. She would be probably completely OK if you threw all your reason and integrity away, made some sounds of apology and went knocking on doors again.

That's like if you were her daughter, you were raped and she wants you to see your rapist again and maybe change your mind - maybe marry him as Bible says, if he pays 30 silver pieces or something.
Yeah, there are some poor, deluded criminal souls, but their victims can not possibly help them. Maybe some prison psychologist far away whom they never saw before and can't possibly hurt, can help them. But if Jehovah's Witnesses see you, they'll know how to push your buttons.

And, it could be wise to make a voice record of the whole debate.
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07-07-2014, 09:41 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
Misanthropik,
You may want to bring a pillow. Something tells me you'll be banging your head against the wall a lot. Tongue

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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07-07-2014, 10:03 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(07-07-2014 09:41 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Misanthropik,
You may want to bring a pillow. Something tells me you'll be banging your head against the wall a lot. Tongue

   

We have enough youth. How about looking for the Fountain of Smart?
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07-07-2014, 10:38 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(06-07-2014 01:45 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I've decided that from the outset, I am going to lay down a single ground rule for him. It will be very simple and very clear, and I will insist that he respect it; lest I refuse to meet with him ever again. I am going to tell him that before he tries to tell me what Jehovah wants and why Jehovah wants it and why I should be following Him, I want him to demonstrate to me - without needing to rely on ANY form of faith - that Jehovah exists at all. Only if he establishes, through tangible demonstration, that there is a thing to worship in the first place, will I be willing to listen to him explain to me why I should worship it.

So…my money says it's gonna be a short study. Wink

This probably won't work out very well for you.

You KNOW the guy cannot meet this requirement. Nobody can meet this requirement. By making it, making him repeat it, and stating that you will not be willing to listen to him until he meets this requirement, you're ending this farce before it starts.

He won't be satisfied (who cares, right?).
Your mom won't be satisfied (he'll tell her how "unreasonable" you were) - unsatisfied, she'll still be just as pushy as ever, but now also disappointed.
You won't be satisfied (you didn't "face your demon" and defeat him; instead, you hid behind an impossible requirement to avoid the demon in the first place).

Nobody wins, not even you.

So why bother?

"Whores perform the same function as priests, but far more thoroughly." - Robert A. Heinlein
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07-07-2014, 10:51 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(07-07-2014 10:03 AM)Thinkerbelle Wrote:  
(07-07-2014 09:41 AM)Impulse Wrote:  Misanthropik,
You may want to bring a pillow. Something tells me you'll be banging your head against the wall a lot. Tongue
LOL, even better! Smile

I am not accountable to any God. I am accountable to myself - and not because I think I am God as some theists would try to assert - but because, no matter what actions I take, thoughts I think, or words I utter, I have to be able to live with myself.
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07-07-2014, 11:28 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(07-07-2014 10:38 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  You KNOW the guy cannot meet this requirement. Nobody can meet this requirement. By making it, making him repeat it, and stating that you will not be willing to listen to him until he meets this requirement, you're ending this farce before it starts.

He won't be satisfied (who cares, right?).
Your mom won't be satisfied (he'll tell her how "unreasonable" you were) - unsatisfied, she'll still be just as pushy as ever, but now also disappointed.
You won't be satisfied (you didn't "face your demon" and defeat him; instead, you hid behind an impossible requirement to avoid the demon in the first place).

Nobody wins, not even you.

So why bother?

There is something to be said for this point of view. I think putting up such a tough criterion for the elder to meet is the OP being defensive. There's nothing wrong with that but the more confident you become that you won't lose an argument with a theist the more interesting it is to entertain what they say. So for example, 'let's say there is a God and that he's X, Y and Z how do you answer this paradox' etc.

After a while you find that there are a myriad of ways in which theism falls flat on its face and it's that freedom that makes the debate interesting. It's certainly not interesting because of any possibility that the theists might be right!

So I think the OP should push himself out of his comfort zone a bit. He can easily jump back into it again if he finds himself at a loss for an answer by demanding evidence that Jehova exists. It's much sweeter to save such knock-out blows until the end when you've already demolished everything that they have suggested.

I don't think it will benefit anyone to record it, but no one will complain if you bring a notepad and pen with you.
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07-07-2014, 10:46 PM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(07-07-2014 10:38 AM)Aseptic Skeptic Wrote:  
(06-07-2014 01:45 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I've decided that from the outset, I am going to lay down a single ground rule for him. It will be very simple and very clear, and I will insist that he respect it; lest I refuse to meet with him ever again. I am going to tell him that before he tries to tell me what Jehovah wants and why Jehovah wants it and why I should be following Him, I want him to demonstrate to me - without needing to rely on ANY form of faith - that Jehovah exists at all. Only if he establishes, through tangible demonstration, that there is a thing to worship in the first place, will I be willing to listen to him explain to me why I should worship it.

So…my money says it's gonna be a short study. Wink

This probably won't work out very well for you.

You KNOW the guy cannot meet this requirement. Nobody can meet this requirement. By making it, making him repeat it, and stating that you will not be willing to listen to him until he meets this requirement, you're ending this farce before it starts.

He won't be satisfied (who cares, right?).
Your mom won't be satisfied (he'll tell her how "unreasonable" you were) - unsatisfied, she'll still be just as pushy as ever, but now also disappointed.
You won't be satisfied (you didn't "face your demon" and defeat him; instead, you hid behind an impossible requirement to avoid the demon in the first place).

Nobody wins, not even you.

So why bother?

You make a good point here, AS. Picking apart individual religious arguments would make a bigger impact than just saying "prove the existence of your god!"

Misanthropik, if you're going to take this approach, then you should say it as "If you cannot prove the existence of your god, then why should I have any reason to believe in your god over the countless other gods that are claimed to exist by people of other cultures around the world? If the existence of your god cannot be proven, then I have no reason to choose your god over that of any other religion around the world."

“Religion was invented when the first con man met the first fool.” - Mark Twain
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08-07-2014, 02:19 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(07-07-2014 04:51 AM)Luminon Wrote:  However, I wonder why do you still hang out with your mom. Doesn't she know that you are traumatized? It's her fault you were caught in the cult in the first place. And now she wants you to face the wrongdoers. Does she give a fuck about how you feel? Apparently not - so I have no idea why do you still want to win some respect from her, such as respect to your intellectual integrity.

Well it's very simple. I'm an egotistical bastard and want to flaunt my intellectual integrity in her face by accepting her challenge. I expect no respect from her end. She simply challenged my adherence to truth, and I won't be letting that go unanswered.


As for "still hanging out with her," well, sometimes she needs someone to take her to the store or someone to repair a fence or someone to bring her this or that. Sometimes I just happen to be that someone.

No, though, she doesn't care how I feel. I'm just a godless heathen, after all, and the only reason I left (and any trauma I may have suffered) is my fault for turning away from Jehovah. The Organization can do no wrong. They are Jehovah's most holy vessel on Earth. The "one true" doctrine. Everyone knows that. Rolleyes

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
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