A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
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03-10-2014, 02:37 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(03-10-2014 12:41 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(28-09-2014 06:12 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  Methinks you give this guy too much respect. Sure, he may be a "nice" bloke, but he's still teaching bullshit to kids. He's a liar. He's exploiting vulnerable adults too...your mum, for example. Let's call a spade a spade...the JW's are fucked up. They're almost universally unwell with deep psychological issues...if you scratched his surface hard enough you'd be sure to dig up a can of worms....but they usually won't talk about it....because they're not in the habit of being real...their whole existence is a facade. Your boy is not even honest enough to recognise he's a hypocrite.

I'd like you to tell him what you really think...and don't hold back. It would do you good too. String him over the coals for being part of a thoroughly immoral, self serving backward, evil cult. Suggest he finds some real friends from somewhere outside the church...he could start with you, for example.

And, by the way, your mum... is as dumb as dog shit. So is my mum ( at times). Just accept it, even though it's hard. You can still love her. Doesn't mean she 's a bad person or doesn't deserve respect. She's intellectually feeble, and a victim of a nasty brainwashing cult. Stop wondering whether she might know something you don't, because she doesn't, so it's not worth the angst. No need to tell her this, because that might compromise your relationship with her, and she wouldn't "get it" anyway.

Tell him though. Hit him with a reality stick. If he gets shitty, so what? He was only talking to you with an agenda that didn't have your interests at heart....but his church's. Why should you care about his feelings? Fuckin' JW's! If he has any real empathy or good will he'll remain cordial.

When you're finished with him, bring on no 2, then 3. They sure fucked you around when you were a kid, now it's their turn.

I would disagree about my mother...but only on the issue of respect. She's not only dumb as dog shit, but is actually proud of it (and is aggressively condescending of anyone who's not as dumb as dog shit), and is thus not worthy of my respect on matters of the intellectual. I know it's a pretty widely-held view that parents are worthy of respect by default, but respect can be lost, and she's lost mine a thousand times over. Plus, she's all but completely shunned me.

(I'd say that, at the very least, she's worth an inheritance but, in their spite, they've put everything in my sister's name. Not like my sister wouldn't share with me anyway, but, it's the thought that counts. Fuck 'em)

Thankyou for reading my comment about your mum in the sense that I intended.

I admire your patience with this dude. He's not particularly smart either. Maybe you could tell him that?

I'm good friends with a local psychiatrist. He's a guy who really tries hard for his patients. Yet he refuses to see JW's. He's learned his lesson through bitter experience; they are just so deluded they are impossible to help.

My experience is similar. I can't help them. Any treatment I suggest is regarded with suspicion and paranoia. And they don't even know I'm an atheist.
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03-10-2014, 03:41 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(03-10-2014 02:37 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 12:41 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I would disagree about my mother...but only on the issue of respect. She's not only dumb as dog shit, but is actually proud of it (and is aggressively condescending of anyone who's not as dumb as dog shit), and is thus not worthy of my respect on matters of the intellectual. I know it's a pretty widely-held view that parents are worthy of respect by default, but respect can be lost, and she's lost mine a thousand times over. Plus, she's all but completely shunned me.

(I'd say that, at the very least, she's worth an inheritance but, in their spite, they've put everything in my sister's name. Not like my sister wouldn't share with me anyway, but, it's the thought that counts. Fuck 'em)

I admire your patience with this dude. He's not particularly smart either. Maybe you could tell him that?

I could, but I'm not sure I agree fully. His problem, like with many believers, is that he compartmentalizes. He's more than willing to be open-minded and reasonable when it comes to a lot of things, to the point that I'm impressed, but when it comes to belief, he just goes all loopy. Wants it to be true; needs it to be true, and thus makes it true in his mind.

That was another thing I tried to get him to see: He kept going off on himself about how he feels some sort of primal drive to do what he considers "bad" things (like have sex and drink beer and get tattoos and even *gasp* ride motorcycles), but sticking with Jehovah keeps him in line. He says that without believing in God, he wouldn't be able to stop at just a few drinks, for instance. His beliefs have been a crutch in helping him to overcome a lot of things he claims he doesn't actually "want" to do, but couldn't help doing otherwise.

I pointed out to him that he's already done it, and under his own power - contrary to his belief. I explained that God is an excellent placebo, but in the end, that's all it is, and he's already done what he believes he cannot do. Like all believers, though, he insisted that the placebo was real medicine, and wouldn't accept my statements to the contrary.

So, I'm not sure he isn't smart. He's just deluded. As was I no more than 5 years ago. If I can be helped, so can he. I just hope he's really as rational - despite everything - as I perceive him to be.

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Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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03-10-2014, 04:43 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
What you have completed is a remarkable thing! You will not bring him around in this chat but I think you may have him asking his own internal questions! Braking free is a long and slow thing to see and you have been kind to this man!

If you can go back and have some more chats on a smaller scale! Ask him if he has questions about atheism you might just show him you can lead a good life with out god!!

Arguing with a zealot is only slightly easier than tunneling through a mountain with your forehead!
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04-10-2014, 04:28 PM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(03-10-2014 03:41 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 02:37 AM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  I admire your patience with this dude. He's not particularly smart either. Maybe you could tell him that?

I could, but I'm not sure I agree fully. His problem, like with many believers, is that he compartmentalizes. He's more than willing to be open-minded and reasonable when it comes to a lot of things, to the point that I'm impressed, but when it comes to belief, he just goes all loopy. Wants it to be true; needs it to be true, and thus makes it true in his mind.

That was another thing I tried to get him to see: He kept going off on himself about how he feels some sort of primal drive to do what he considers "bad" things (like have sex and drink beer and get tattoos and even *gasp* ride motorcycles), but sticking with Jehovah keeps him in line. He says that without believing in God, he wouldn't be able to stop at just a few drinks, for instance. His beliefs have been a crutch in helping him to overcome a lot of things he claims he doesn't actually "want" to do, but couldn't help doing otherwise.

I pointed out to him that he's already done it, and under his own power - contrary to his belief. I explained that God is an excellent placebo, but in the end, that's all it is, and he's already done what he believes he cannot do. Like all believers, though, he insisted that the placebo was real medicine, and wouldn't accept my statements to the contrary.

So, I'm not sure he isn't smart. He's just deluded. As was I no more than 5 years ago. If I can be helped, so can he. I just hope he's really as rational - despite everything - as I perceive him to be.

I hear you. Well said.

Perhaps you could tell him how smart he is in other areas of his life and hint that maybe is not being so smart in belonging to a church?

I wonder what he is actually getting out of his role in the church? Prestige? Power? Money? A (false) sense of purpose?
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05-10-2014, 04:39 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(04-10-2014 04:28 PM)Mark Fulton Wrote:  
(03-10-2014 03:41 AM)Misanthropik Wrote:  I could, but I'm not sure I agree fully. His problem, like with many believers, is that he compartmentalizes. He's more than willing to be open-minded and reasonable when it comes to a lot of things, to the point that I'm impressed, but when it comes to belief, he just goes all loopy. Wants it to be true; needs it to be true, and thus makes it true in his mind.

That was another thing I tried to get him to see: He kept going off on himself about how he feels some sort of primal drive to do what he considers "bad" things (like have sex and drink beer and get tattoos and even *gasp* ride motorcycles), but sticking with Jehovah keeps him in line. He says that without believing in God, he wouldn't be able to stop at just a few drinks, for instance. His beliefs have been a crutch in helping him to overcome a lot of things he claims he doesn't actually "want" to do, but couldn't help doing otherwise.

I pointed out to him that he's already done it, and under his own power - contrary to his belief. I explained that God is an excellent placebo, but in the end, that's all it is, and he's already done what he believes he cannot do. Like all believers, though, he insisted that the placebo was real medicine, and wouldn't accept my statements to the contrary.

So, I'm not sure he isn't smart. He's just deluded. As was I no more than 5 years ago. If I can be helped, so can he. I just hope he's really as rational - despite everything - as I perceive him to be.

I hear you. Well said.

Perhaps you could tell him how smart he is in other areas of his life and hint that maybe is not being so smart in belonging to a church?

I wonder what he is actually getting out of his role in the church? Prestige? Power? Money? A (false) sense of purpose?

It seems like it's helped him get through some (what he sees to be) bad times in his life. It's hard to let that kind of thing go. Also sounds like he's desperately clinging on so he doesn't end up doing something bad again. I mean, religion can be a vehicle for change. He's just gotta see that he did it on his own and he can let go of the crutch. I know from experience that it can be a tough thing to let go.

Atheism is the only way to truly be free from sin.
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10-10-2014, 08:09 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
So the dude didn't get with me on Sunday, nor did he get back to me on Wednesday like he said he would.

I don't know if it's his job, his family, or if the scientific publications I had him read made a little too much sense for his own comfort, but either way, it's given me time to research more quote-mining from the WT organization.

A really great one I found was in the book "Life - How did it get here? By evolution or by creation?" Looking past the obvious errors in just the title alone, I looked through some of the chapters inside to see what sorts of scientists they might have misquoted. On page 70 in the chapter "Letting the Fossil Record Speak," they quoted our old buddy Carl Sagan. What they didn't count on was having this chapter read by a Sagan fan-boy to whom their treachery would be both blatant and stunning in equal measures.

Page 70: "Astronomer Carl Sagan candidly acknowledged in his book Cosmos: 'The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a great designer.'"

I almost fell out of my chair, as I'm sure you did as well, because anyone who knows Sagan knows damn well he wouldn't be saying some stupid shit like that. (Notice how they made it into a "candid" confession) So, my fingers began pounding away at the Google-machine, and I found the actual quote:

"The fossil evidence could be consistent with the idea of a Great Designer; perhaps some species are destroyed when the Designer becomes dissatisfied with them, and new experiments are attempted on an improved design. But this notion is a little disconcerting. Each plant and animal is exquisitely made; should not a supremely competent Designer have been able to make the intended variety from the start? The fossil record implies trial and error, an inability to anticipate the future, features inconsistent with an efficient Great Designer (although not with a Designer of a more remote and indirect temperament)."

The dishonesty on the part of the WT was so blatant and cunning, and it set off a firestorm. I literally spent the next 6-7 hours researching every single quote and citation in that god-awful chapter, and - literally - every single one of them had been taken out of context or quoted from dubious sources to begin with.

I've rehearsed a thousand times how I'm going to present this to him. I want to lure him into agreeing that such dishonesty is bad, first. Reference a talk I once heard at the meeting that spoke of such tactics and why Jehovah's organization would never do such a thing. Satan is the "father of the lie," after all. I'll get him on my side of the argument, then I'll open my folder and bring out the printed documents listing the transgressions. (Offending portions and their cross-references being highlighted)


Again, I don't know if I'll bring it to him at our very next meet-up, but I will soon. I'm trying very hard not to be too excited. Smartass

Through profound pain comes profound knowledge.
Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto! Ridi del duol, che t'avvelena il cor!
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10-10-2014, 08:19 AM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
Ha, I bet all those are quotes are along the same lines

"Sure, it could be a designer... But it's not"

And of course they leave the second half (and explanation!) out of it!



I'm excited for you, I hope he's not ditching you because he's starting to really feel doubt.

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10-10-2014, 01:35 PM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(10-10-2014 08:19 AM)Colourcraze Wrote:  I hope he's not ditching you because he's starting to really feel doubt.

If this is the case, the worm of doubt is already in his mind. If he's a person who truly wants to be honest with himself he won't be able to ignore it.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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10-10-2014, 01:49 PM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(10-10-2014 01:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  ...
the worm of doubt
...

Harry Potter and the Worm of Doubt.

Yup. Liking that.

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10-10-2014, 02:01 PM
RE: A Very Misanthropik Bible Study
(10-10-2014 01:49 PM)DLJ Wrote:  
(10-10-2014 01:35 PM)morondog Wrote:  ...
the worm of doubt
...

Harry Potter and the Worm of Doubt.

Yup. Liking that.

"How shall we defeat the Worm of Doubt, Harry?"
"I'm not sure..."

Then he regains his faith in Albus Dumble-fucking-dore and some vastly improbable magic effect stemming from his pants being made of nylon saves his pasty white ass and Harry McFucking Potter never doubts that he is right ever in his life again.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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