A belief about death
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29-09-2017, 02:03 PM
RE: A belief about death
(29-09-2017 10:29 AM)adey67 Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 09:05 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  We all have to die. I won't fight it, and I sincerely hope there's nothing after it.

There isn't, rest easy my friend. Yes

Arthur hoped and prayed there wasn't an afterlife. Then he realized there was a contradiction there and merely hoped there wasn't an afterlife.

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29-09-2017, 03:39 PM
RE: A belief about death
(29-09-2017 01:55 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  There is reality, and then there is what our senses and scientific instruments can detect. We tend to equate the two, but there is no reason to suppose that what our senses are capable of detecting is all there is. Magee thinks it's highly probable that there are aspects of reality that we are totally unaware of.

There will always be aspects of reality beyond our senses. We will never see 99.9999999999% of the universe, even with the best scientific devices.

The real question is whether they should be considered important aspects of reality, or just rearrangements of the matter and forces we already understand. Aside from dark matter and dark energy, why hypothesize any invisibles at all without seeing any discernable effects which might reasonably lead us to them?
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29-09-2017, 03:46 PM
RE: A belief about death
(29-09-2017 03:39 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  
(29-09-2017 01:55 PM)Grasshopper Wrote:  There is reality, and then there is what our senses and scientific instruments can detect. We tend to equate the two, but there is no reason to suppose that what our senses are capable of detecting is all there is. Magee thinks it's highly probable that there are aspects of reality that we are totally unaware of.

There will always be aspects of reality beyond our senses. We will never see 99.9999999999% of the universe, even with the best scientific devices.

The real question is whether they should be considered important aspects of reality, or just rearrangements of the matter and forces we already understand. Aside from dark matter and dark energy, why hypothesize any invisibles at all without seeing any discernable effects which might reasonably lead us to them?

I can't answer any of those questions, and that's basically the point. There's so much that we don't know and can't know. You'll never catch me asserting dogmatically (as some -- not you -- have recently done in this thread) that there is certainly no God and no immortal soul. I don't believe in either of those things, but I remain open to the possibility. I just don't know enough to be certain, and I don't believe anyone else does either.
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30-09-2017, 01:58 AM
RE: A belief about death
(29-09-2017 08:05 AM)adey67 Wrote:  I love how you phrase your posts D, you're never snarky or condescending and your phraseology is always spot on I rate you in the top 5 most diplomatic and thoughtful posters on TTA.

adey,

What a kind thing to say. I respect your thinking in the same way.

Just about everybody here will know I'm not an atheist, but an agnostic. This is a good position for raising discussions with both theists and atheists, although the latter are generally much more interesting for obvious reasons. But, as a conceptual outsider on TTA I try to tread very carefully.

Re your further argument, I will happily accept "infinitesimally small" as a possibility. Thumbsup

D.
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30-09-2017, 02:09 AM
RE: A belief about death
(29-09-2017 09:05 AM)Clockwork Wrote:  We all have to die. I won't fight it, and I sincerely hope there's nothing after it.

Clockwork,

I'm not far away from you. My hope is that there is not the chains of mono theism Shocking. To me it would be like being locked in a stifling groundhog day or the pages of an eternal book. Camus' writing on the myth of Sisyphus comes to mind.

So, nothing would be fine, but I'm open to a whatever actually happens (not so much with mono theism).

D.
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30-09-2017, 02:22 AM
RE: A belief about death
(29-09-2017 01:38 PM)Thoreauvian Wrote:  We would never even assume that was a possibility unless we wanted it to be true.

Thoreauvian,

Oops, I have to dissent on this point. Confused

I assume/accept that mono theism is a possibility, but I don't want it to be true!

http://shalom-baptist.org/wp-content/upl...r-Life.pdf

D.
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30-09-2017, 04:34 AM
RE: A belief about death
Dworkin... I don't get why you think there's a possibility of anything other than decomposition after one dies? I mean, sure, we can't know for absolute sure, but the probability is infinitesimal, the same order of magnitude as the probability that there is an eternal old man dressed in red who's preferred mode of transport is a sled and who delivers gifts appropriate to the family's economic position to children worldwide each year during the course of a single night.

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If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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30-09-2017, 05:36 AM
RE: A belief about death
(29-09-2017 11:11 AM)Grasshopper Wrote:  My basic belief is the same as that of most responders in this thread. When our physical body dies, so does everything else about us. Nothing of us survives physical death. However, I don't claim to be certain about this, and I'm not sure how anyone could be.

I recently read a book about this subject: The Immortal in You by Michael Augros. He's a Catholic apologist, so I take him with a huge grain of salt, and I don't buy his main point (he claims to be certain that we have souls that survive death). However, he did raise some interesting questions. All of our science so far shows that the mind is dependent on a functioning brain. He makes an interesting analogy, though: light is necessary for seeing, but is not the source of our power to see. What if the brain is like that? What if our mind/soul can exist without a brain, but can only perform its usual functions "through" a brain? Of course, there is no evidence that this analogy actually holds up, but it's an intriguing possibility.

I admit the possibility that there can be real things that are not detectable by our senses, or by scientific instruments. I will not say that such things are certain, but I won't say they're impossible, either. I guess I will find out (or, more likely not) when I die.

In the case of light being necessary to see, we can detect the EM radiation and identify how it triggers reactions in the cells of the retina to cause changes that are transmitted into the brain. Looking at how the eye works it would be difficult to explain it if some external force were not acting on it.

If the brain worked the same way then some cause would have to be creating physical changes in the neurons to trigger thoughts. We don't see anything like that so I don't see the point in speculating that there could be something undetected that is causing changes when no external cause is need to explain the activity we see.

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30-09-2017, 06:00 AM
RE: A belief about death
(30-09-2017 04:34 AM)morondog Wrote:  Dworkin... I don't get why you think there's a possibility of anything other than decomposition after one dies? I mean, sure, we can't know for absolute sure, but the probability is infinitesimal, the same order of magnitude as the probability that there is an eternal old man dressed in red who's preferred mode of transport is a sled and who delivers gifts appropriate to the family's economic position to children worldwide each year during the course of a single night.

morondog,

I think you'll spot the formal problem in your post. An infinitesimal probability is a possibility. The degree of probability is not the issue, the issue is probability, which is a contingent concept.

A study of deductive and inductive arguments in formal logic is most helpful in this area of philosophy. Philosophers will tell us that deductive logic is the nearest we can get to absolute certainty and that inductive logic has the problem we are discussing now. Some have said that induction is 'The skeleton in David Hume's closet'. This is because empiricism is vulnerable to induction.

D.

PS - A caveat, and a big one. I have implied above that deductive logic may not be absolutely certain. I have spoken to some philosophers who will accept that there may come such a change in reality such that 2+2 no longer = 4. Now, that is quite a level of rational anarchy! Hobo
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30-09-2017, 02:59 PM
RE: A belief about death
(30-09-2017 06:00 AM)Dworkin Wrote:  
(30-09-2017 04:34 AM)morondog Wrote:  Dworkin... I don't get why you think there's a possibility of anything other than decomposition after one dies? I mean, sure, we can't know for absolute sure, but the probability is infinitesimal, the same order of magnitude as the probability that there is an eternal old man dressed in red who's preferred mode of transport is a sled and who delivers gifts appropriate to the family's economic position to children worldwide each year during the course of a single night.

morondog,

I think you'll spot the formal problem in your post. An infinitesimal probability is a possibility. The degree of probability is not the issue, the issue is probability, which is a contingent concept.

A study of deductive and inductive arguments in formal logic is most helpful in this area of philosophy. Philosophers will tell us that deductive logic is the nearest we can get to absolute certainty and that inductive logic has the problem we are discussing now. Some have said that induction is 'The skeleton in David Hume's closet'. This is because empiricism is vulnerable to induction.

D.

PS - A caveat, and a big one. I have implied above that deductive logic may not be absolutely certain. I have spoken to some philosophers who will accept that there may come such a change in reality such that 2+2 no longer = 4. Now, that is quite a level of rational anarchy! Hobo

Nay, I deny thy formal problem. Unless you're prepared to discuss the existence of Santa Claus with equal seriousness to any given religion. Or the little invisible green mamba living in my closet who happens to have created the entire world apart from Donald Trump. He denies responsibility for that guy.

Also 2+2=4 is merely a convention and can be violated at any time. 2 raindrops added to another 2 raindrops = 1 raindrop without the universe imploding.

We'll love you just the way you are
If you're perfect -- Alanis Morissette
(06-02-2014 03:47 PM)Momsurroundedbyboys Wrote:  And I'm giving myself a conclusion again from all the facepalming.
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