A bit of a conundrum
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18-08-2013, 04:25 PM
A bit of a conundrum
pleaseconvinceme.com/2012/is-jesus-simply-a-retelling-of-the-horus-myth/

I was presented with this link when I shared a picture on facebook regarding the similarities between Jesus and Horus. The person who posted this then went on to say:

"The Messiah prophesies were first revealed to the Israelites long before Horus... And they happened to be enslaved for many generations in Egypt. It is quite possible that Horus himself is actually a copycat of the prophecies of Jesus."

I am having a bit of a hard time finding the origins of these Messiah prophesies and I am also having a hard time trusting the source she cited due to the fact that it is a christian site which I figured is a bit biased.

She is stating that the story of Jesus predates Horus which due to research of my own states that Horus in fact predated Jesus.

So I come to you my fellow free thinkers and investigators to help shine some light on this subject that I am ignorant in. I would like to know what these Messiah prophesies are. I have a feeling they are nothing more than ancient middle eastern mythologies but I am not well versed in the subject to argue that. Also feel free to give me some feed back on the link I posted. Again I feel it is heavily biased.

thank you for your time!

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19-08-2013, 11:46 AM
RE: A bit of a conundrum
Bump!

This is one for the scholars here (Mark Fulton, Bucky Ball etc. (not me)) but I recall reading somewhere that there is no evidence for the "enslaved for many generations in Egypt" myth.

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19-08-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: A bit of a conundrum
Jesus has nothing to do with Horus. Or vice versa. Jesus is syncretic, sure, but between Judaism and Hellenistic cults.

It's usually overzealous atheists who make the claim the other way around (cf Religulous). First time I've heard it reversed...

There's really no similarity, if you look past the questionable and superficial supposed parallels. For what it's worth, the oldest biblical stories were written in the 600s BC. The stories of the patriarchs were supposed to have occurred a thousand years before that. Horus is attested in the old Egyptian religion at least two thousand years before that. Of course, facts don't get in the way of True Believers...

It's not like the Egyptians had much of any engagement with the outside world until the late Middle Kingdom, and they only started playing power politics in the Levant in the New Kingdom. But nowhere in their extraordinarily extensive records is there the slightest hint they ever enslaved whole peoples, let alone that any of them escaped.

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19-08-2013, 12:01 PM (This post was last modified: 19-08-2013 12:05 PM by ridethespiral.)
RE: A bit of a conundrum
I dunno how favored it is at this point but there is a theory that Jesus like Horus (and a great number of other deities) is essentially a sun god...and that the whole crucifixion/resurrection thing is a dramatization of the path the sun takes through the sky.

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19-08-2013, 12:04 PM
RE: A bit of a conundrum
If the prophecy predates Horus, then doesn't that make Horus the Messiah ?

Horus goes back to 3100 BC and earlier I'm sure, but that is a date that scholars have put down as the early Dynastic periods.
Ask her when these messiah prophecies were written and if by whom ?

It's unlikely she'll be able to come up with a source that predates our earliest found writings because then that source would be the earliest known writings.

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19-08-2013, 12:11 PM
RE: A bit of a conundrum
(19-08-2013 12:01 PM)ridethespiral Wrote:  I dunno how favored it is at this point but there is a theory that Jesus like Horus (and a great number of other deities) is essential a sun god...and that the whole crucifixion/resurrection thing is a dramatization of the path the sun takes through the sky.

The main problem is the Hellenistic world had cannibalized every religion they had come in contact with and Christianity is a potpourri of Jewish and Hellenistic religions so while there may be some elements in common it is hard to say which previous religion is being poached from for each element. The beginnings of christianity are so shrouded in the fog of time and lack of any real records that it would be nearly impossible to figure out exactly what occurred in it's inception. Of the facts we do know (few and far between they are) it seems more likely that the basis was messianic judaism mixed heavily with the greek mystery cults with a splash of Zeus/Saturn.

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19-08-2013, 12:29 PM
RE: A bit of a conundrum
(19-08-2013 12:11 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  The main problem is the Hellenistic world had cannibalized every religion they had come in contact with...

Oh, so much so. Leaving aside the equation of foreign gods with aspects of their own existing mythology, there was wholesale adoption of eastern gods like Isis, Cybele, Atargatis, or Mithras; there were hero cults like Herakles or Zalmoxis or Asklepios; even pure fabrications like Serapis.

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19-08-2013, 01:46 PM
RE: A bit of a conundrum
(19-08-2013 11:59 AM)cjlr Wrote:  Jesus has nothing to do with Horus. Or vice versa. Jesus is syncretic, sure, but between Judaism and Hellenistic cults.

It's usually overzealous atheists who make the claim the other way around (cf Religulous). First time I've heard it reversed...

There's really no similarity, if you look past the questionable and superficial supposed parallels. For what it's worth, the oldest biblical stories were written in the 600s BC. The stories of the patriarchs were supposed to have occurred a thousand years before that. Horus is attested in the old Egyptian religion at least two thousand years before that. Of course, facts don't get in the way of True Believers...

It's not like the Egyptians had much of any engagement with the outside world until the late Middle Kingdom, and they only started playing power politics in the Levant in the New Kingdom. But nowhere in their extraordinarily extensive records is there the slightest hint they ever enslaved whole peoples, let alone that any of them escaped.

Could you refer me to some literature on the topic? Or at least point me in the right direction so I can research it my self?

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19-08-2013, 01:59 PM
RE: A bit of a conundrum
(19-08-2013 12:04 PM)Rahn127 Wrote:  If the prophecy predates Horus, then doesn't that make Horus the Messiah ?

Horus goes back to 3100 BC and earlier I'm sure, but that is a date that scholars have put down as the early Dynastic periods.
Ask her when these messiah prophecies were written and if by whom ?

It's unlikely she'll be able to come up with a source that predates our earliest found writings because then that source would be the earliest known writings.

The post went sour when one of my buddies, a militant atheist, went off on her and attacked her religion. But I am informed on the matter now, at least more so then I was.

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19-08-2013, 02:24 PM
RE: A bit of a conundrum
(19-08-2013 01:46 PM)sequoyah Wrote:  Could you refer me to some literature on the topic? Or at least point me in the right direction so I can research it my self?

Hmm. It's not my field, but you might be well served by starting with something like this.

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