A call for civility (in most cases)
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01-10-2013, 09:35 PM
A call for civility (in most cases)
I'm no authority here but I got my opinions and damn it you better fucking express yours too. Now to be honest names like sky daddy or calling the bible a book of fairy tales or aesop's fables on crack can be offensive to certain temperaments and should be avoided in serious discussions to theists. I don't know how dawkins's does it, have you seen the Richard Dawkins vs Wendy Wright video? Its really something to aspire to. Fuck, if Christopher Hitchens was alive and did that interview he would send her crying home! (HitchensHeart )
Of course I am by no means against satire and ridicule when its called for but try to be civil. Whats your take?
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01-10-2013, 09:45 PM
RE: A call for civility (in most cases)
I am usually as civil as my opponent is to me. I don't like when people try to moderate a conversation in any way, and especially don't like it when people play the victim card. The truth is that it doesn't matter if you are offended or not, anything anyone says is fair game and the more you cry about it the worse the discussion gets. But I'm pretty sure that Dawkins has called the bible a book of fairy tales many times in many different contexts.

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01-10-2013, 09:59 PM
RE: A call for civility (in most cases)
(01-10-2013 09:45 PM)elegant_atheist Wrote:  I am usually as civil as my opponent is to me. I don't like when people try to moderate a conversation in any way, and especially don't like it when people play the victim card. The truth is that it doesn't matter if you are offended or not, anything anyone says is fair game and the more you cry about it the worse the discussion gets. But I'm pretty sure that Dawkins has called the bible a book of fairy tales many times in many different contexts.
lol in fact he did but is it really the right call? Conversation tends to stop when you call it basically meaningless. My own interpretation is that the bible is mythology, a collection of metaphor and allegory with a little bit of morality tale thrown in. I really have no problem with the book that is unless they take it literally. My problem is with the religion built around it. Any and all criticism is meant with anti-religious furber. They have every right to believe what they want but damn..I don't need to have it forced in my doorway or our schools.
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01-10-2013, 10:17 PM
RE: A call for civility (in most cases)
I believe you shouldn't go out of your way to offend people or ridicule beliefs, but when someone makes a claim, you should be honest and not hold back opinions or the truth. And the way you talk is important. If you just say "You're an idiot for believing the Bible", that is nothing more than a petty insult. While it may seem obvious to you that the Bible is a book of myths, a religious person may not have seriously applied reason to his beliefs, or critically examined the book, or may have been fed bullshit "evidence" all his life. Instead, explain why you feel that way about the Bible, and why it makes no sense to believe in it.

I don't call holy books "fairy tales" or refer to religious people as "creatards" unless the other guy has already shown himself to be an asshole with no hope of engaging in proper civil discourse, such as William Lane Craig, Egor, or Hitler. To someone whose face probably doesn't deserve to be painted on urinal cakes, I usually try the "respectful, rational guy" approach.

It isn't that I have respect for their religion or their holy book - I don't. It's that I can be aggressive and insulting and cause a theist to retreat into his protective shell, or I can possibly communicate something thought-provoking, causing him to critically examine his beliefs.

If something can be destroyed by the truth, it might be worth destroying.

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01-10-2013, 10:38 PM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2013 12:05 AM by Dark Light.)
RE: A call for civility (in most cases)
(01-10-2013 10:17 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  I believe you shouldn't go out of your way to offend people or ridicule beliefs, but when someone makes a claim, you should be honest and not hold back opinions or the truth. And the way you talk is important. If you just say "You're an idiot for believing the Bible", that is nothing more than a petty insult. While it may seem obvious to you that the Bible is a book of myths, a religious person may not have seriously applied reason to his beliefs, or critically examined the book, or may have been fed bullshit "evidence" all his life. Instead, explain why you feel that way about the Bible, and why it makes no sense to believe in it.

I don't call holy books "fairy tales" or refer to religious people as "creatards" unless the other guy has already shown himself to be an asshole with no hope of engaging in proper civil discourse, such as William Lane Craig, Egor, or Hitler. To someone whose face probably doesn't deserve to be painted on urinal cakes, I usually try the "respectful, rational guy" approach.

It isn't that I have respect for their religion or their holy book - I don't. It's that I can be aggressive and insulting and cause a theist to retreat into his protective shell, or I can possibly communicate something thought-provoking, causing him to critically examine his beliefs.

Elesjei pretty much nailed it. But, I should say respect is earned and not given. I will talk to you in a polite manner until you have demonstrated that your argument cannot be supported by logic or facts and commit yourself to attempt to belittle me. Not something that really plays a significant part in my life anymore though. I think the last time I was actually in a religious debate was in highschool...which I don't like to admit was nearly a decade ago. It just doesn't usually come up, and I am rarely hassled about it anymore. Mostly because I am so introverted I think. Shit, I am starting to get old.

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01-10-2013, 10:52 PM (This post was last modified: 02-10-2013 05:41 AM by grizzlysnake.)
RE: A call for civility (in most cases)
(01-10-2013 10:38 PM)Dark Light Wrote:  
(01-10-2013 10:17 PM)Elesjei Wrote:  I believe you shouldn't go out of your way to offend people or ridicule beliefs, but when someone makes a claim, you should be honest and not hold back opinions or the truth. And the way you talk is important. If you just say "You're an idiot for believing the Bible", that is nothing more than a petty insult. While it may seem obvious to you that the Bible is a book of myths, a religious person may not have seriously applied reason to his beliefs, or critically examined the book, or may have been fed bullshit "evidence" all his life. Instead, explain why you feel that way about the Bible, and why it makes no sense to believe in it.

I don't call holy books "fairy tales" or refer to religious people as "creatards" unless the other guy has already shown himself to be an asshole with no hope of engaging in proper civil discourse, such as William Lane Craig, Egor, or Hitler. To someone whose face probably doesn't deserve to be painted on urinal cakes, I usually try the "respectful, rational guy" approach.

It isn't that I have respect for their religion or their holy book - I don't. It's that I can be aggressive and insulting and cause a theist to retreat into his protective shell, or I can possibly communicate something thought-provoking, causing him to critically examine his beliefs.

Elesjei pretty much nailed it. But, I should say respect is earned and not given. I well talk to you in a polite manner until you have demonstrated that your argument cannot be supported by logic or facts and commit yourself to attempt to belittle me. Not something that really plays a significant part in my life anymore though. I think the last time I was actually in a religious debate was in highschool...which I don't like to admit was nearly a decade ago. It just doesn't usually come up, and I am rarely hassled about it anymore. Mostly because I am so introverted I think. Shit, I am starting to get old.
but its not about logic darklight, its about faith!
Shit, I tend to avoid such conversations myself. I used to say "I have no religion but I respect all" but damn..the things I been reading about I don't think I can even do that anymore. But yes, respect them as a person first.
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02-10-2013, 12:07 AM
RE: A call for civility (in most cases)
Most religions deserve no respect as far as I am concerned. Certainly not Christianity and Islam. I do have a lot of respect for Sikhs, and Buddhists, however.

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02-10-2013, 03:22 AM
RE: A call for civility (in most cases)
It's all a load of shit. As such it gets the appropriate amount of respect. (none).

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02-10-2013, 03:29 AM
RE: A call for civility (in most cases)
(01-10-2013 09:35 PM)grizzlysnake Wrote:  Whats your take?

Fuck 'em.

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02-10-2013, 03:30 AM
RE: A call for civility (in most cases)
Well, in that regard yes. But, there is a difference between religions that advocate for genital mutilations, stonings, conversion at the end of a gun, and those that don't give a shit what you believe, actively defend others regardless of beliefs, and go out of their way to break bread with everyone regardless of beliefs. I have a lot of respect for one of these groups.

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