A confused Atheist..
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
02-08-2011, 01:48 AM
RE: A confused Atheist..
Theophilius, you never cease to amaze me.

Not only do you bother to stick around on a forum that mainly focuses on debunking you believes (sometimes in a nasty and unfair way), you always seem to have the correct apologetics at hand. From human to human: I wish I had you character. I could be massively wrong but I think you got a mission from your god to "keep an eye out for lost sheep amongst those fools" Wink

From atheist to theist: Too bad apologetics are indistinguishable from personal opinions and appeal to emotions since there is no proof for them and differ from claim to claim. Also, good comes from bad does not proof God, it only proofs just that: that you can distill good out of bad. (there is water in every rock)

About that "good things come from bad things" statement. When I was younger and still theistic it was my pet argument. But later I learned that:
  • This is in many cases only true because people are able to intervene.
  • Making bad things alright again is unnecessary if they wouldn't have happened in the first place.
  • Making things right again does not always suffices (Job might have got children again, but children are irreplaceable (<-- not really a good example, Job sees his children back in heaven. Then again: I hope both generations of children will get along Tongue)
and, to me, the final nail in the coffin:
  • often bad comes from good! (Pollution out of progress, Church roofs falling on people looking for shelter)

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2011, 04:42 AM
RE: A confused Atheist..
Quote:Job might have got children again, but children are irreplaceable (<-- not really a good example, Job sees his children back in heaven. Then again: I hope both generations of children will get along

And what if somebody goes to hell, then he will not see his children. Not all of us are Job or his kids... So the example is good, only not applicable to Job, but to us "regular" humans.

[Image: a6505fe8.jpg]
I have a theory that the truth is never told during the nine-to-five hours.
-Hunter S. Thompson
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2011, 12:22 PM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(02-08-2011 01:48 AM)The_observer Wrote:  good comes from bad does not proof God
I wasn't trying to prove God. I was simply explaining why he allows evil to exist.

Quote:This is in many cases only true because people are able to intervene.
That is because God often uses people to carry out his plan.

Quote:Making bad things alright again is unnecessary if they wouldn't have happened in the first place.
The reason things are bad is that God has given us free will. Our misuse of freedom is the reason things go bad in the first place.

Quote:Making things right again does not always suffices (Job might have got children again, but children are irreplaceable (<-- not really a good example, Job sees his children back in heaven. Then again: I hope both generations of children will get along Tongue)
Bringing good out of bad doesn't necessarily mean that the results of every bad thing are cancelled out and that we will see the good that results. I was speaking of God's ultimate plan for his creation, which will bring about a final good result that will outweigh all of the evil that exists.

Quote:For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison, as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
2 Corinthians 4:17,18 ESV

Quote:bad often bad comes from good! (Pollution out of progress, Church roofs falling on people looking for shelter)
During this life both good and bad seem to be mixed together at random. What matters if the final outcome after this present life is over.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2011, 01:08 PM
RE: A confused Atheist..
So God's motto is:
The goal sanctifies the means.

(This is a free translation form the dutch "Het doel heiligt de middelen". I don't know if this is a correct english proverb.)

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2011, 05:05 PM
RE: A confused Atheist..
Here is a moral standard to try out for fit:

If something is wrong for a peasant to do, it's twice as wrong for a burgher, because he hasn't the excuse of poverty and ignorance to drive him to it.
If something is wrong for a burgher to do, it's twice as wrong for a king, because he hasn't the excuse of anxiety and status to drive him to it.
If something is wrong for a king to do, it's ten times as wrong for a god, because he hasn't any excuse at all.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
02-08-2011, 05:57 PM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(02-08-2011 12:22 PM)theophilus Wrote:  The reason things are bad is that God has given us free will.

Yeah, that one ain't obvious either. "As of 2008, the upcoming outcome of a decision could be found in study of the brain activity in the prefrontal and parietal cortex up to 7 seconds before the subject was aware of their decision."

(02-08-2011 01:08 PM)The_observer Wrote:  So God's motto is:
The goal sanctifies the means.

(This is a free translation form the dutch "Het doel heiligt de middelen". I don't know if this is a correct english proverb.)

Close enough. "The ends justify the means."

As it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be, world without end. Amen.
And I will show you something different from either
Your shadow at morning striding behind you
Or your shadow at evening rising to meet you;
I will show you fear in a handful of dust.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2011, 01:00 PM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(02-08-2011 05:05 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Here is a moral standard to try out for fit:

If something is wrong for a peasant to do, it's twice as wrong for a burgher, because he hasn't the excuse of poverty and ignorance to drive him to it.
If something is wrong for a burgher to do, it's twice as wrong for a king, because he hasn't the excuse of anxiety and status to drive him to it.
If something is wrong for a king to do, it's ten times as wrong for a god, because he hasn't any excuse at all.
This principle doesn't always work. It would be wrong for me to take a scalpel and cut someone open with it but the same action would be right for a doctor who needs to do that to perform a life saving operation. Sometimes superior knowledge gives someone the right to do things that would be wrong for others. Since God's knowledge is infinitely greater that ours he can do things we are forbidden to do because he knows how to do them is such a way as to bring about good results.

Another thing that gives rights is ownership. It would be wrong for me to go to my neighbor's house and destroy something that belongs to him but he has the right to destroy that object because he owns us. We all belong to God because he created us and his ownership gives him an absolute right to do whatever he wants with us. Our right is limited to what he permits us to do.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2011, 02:03 PM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(03-08-2011 01:00 PM)theophilus Wrote:  
(02-08-2011 05:05 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Here is a moral standard to try out for fit:

If something is wrong for a peasant to do, it's twice as wrong for a burgher, because he hasn't the excuse of poverty and ignorance to drive him to it.
If something is wrong for a burgher to do, it's twice as wrong for a king, because he hasn't the excuse of anxiety and status to drive him to it.
If something is wrong for a king to do, it's ten times as wrong for a god, because he hasn't any excuse at all.
This principle doesn't always work. It would be wrong for me to take a scalpel and cut someone open with it but the same action would be right for a doctor who needs to do that to perform a life saving operation. Sometimes superior knowledge gives someone the right to do things that would be wrong for others. Since God's knowledge is infinitely greater that ours he can do things we are forbidden to do because he knows how to do them is such a way as to bring about good results.

Another thing that gives rights is ownership. It would be wrong for me to go to my neighbor's house and destroy something that belongs to him but he has the right to destroy that object because he owns us. We all belong to God because he created us and his ownership gives him an absolute right to do whatever he wants with us. Our right is limited to what he permits us to do.

Sorry but I'm calling a hefty dose of BS on that one. A parent 'created' a child, yet it is illegal for them to harm the child. If god is our 'parent' then Child Protection services are probably very interested in taking him on a ride downtown.

[Image: 1471821-futurama_bender_s_big_score_imag...er-1-1.jpg]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-08-2011, 02:20 PM (This post was last modified: 03-08-2011 03:14 PM by Peterkin.)
RE: A confused Atheist..
(02-08-2011 05:05 PM)Peterkin Wrote:  Here is a moral standard ....
moral - not situational, not professional, not quibble-wiggular

The higher you are on the evolutionary scale, the higher moral standard you must be held to. No exceptions, no excuses.

Because, if you've set yourself up as the absolute arbiter of right and wrong; if you blame and punish the limited creature for its wrong actions, then, as an unlimited creator, it's your job to set the absolute example of good behaviour.
"Do as I say, not as I do" is the phrase of imperfect mortals.
If you have absolute power, you don't have the right to turn around and say, "I can't make good come out without doing evil." An omnipotent being can.

So, either you're omnipotent or moral - maybe neither; certainly not both.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Peterkin's post
03-08-2011, 02:51 PM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(02-08-2011 05:57 PM)GirlyMan Wrote:  Close enough. "The ends justify the means."
I'll file this mentally. Tnx Girly.

Observer

Agnostic atheist
Secular humanist
Emotional rationalist
Disclaimer: Don’t mix the personal opinion above with the absolute and objective truth. Remember to think for yourself. Thank you.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: