A confused Atheist..
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09-08-2011, 02:29 PM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(05-08-2011 02:50 PM)myst32 Wrote:  If God is perfect why does "he" need or want to be worshiped? A perfect all knowing being by definition would not "need or want" anything.

The best theistic argument about this I have heard is that a person is most sane when he cares about something more important than himself - and God is the ultimately important thing. I quite like this argument. My issues with it are that God does not exist, and to the extent that he does he is an oversized human. Secondly the consequences of believing in God in practice seem to be rather bad.
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09-08-2011, 04:40 PM
 
RE: A confused Atheist..
(09-08-2011 09:58 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
Quote:1. What makes God a standard for morality?
Since he created us he has the right to determine how we should live.

That doesn't follow. Let's convert this to a logical argument:

1. X created Y. (Premise)
2. Therefore, X has the right to determine how Y lives. (Conclusion)

I don't see how the conclusion follows from the premise. I'm pretty sure you don't mean create as in a couple creating a baby, a scientist engineering a new organism, or an engineer building a sentient machine. Can you give examples that don't involve God?

And for the third time:
Quote:First, that anything God does to us is just fine, not matter what that is. God can send you and all the other believers to an eternal, literal hell while taking the thousand most despicable human beings(*edit: despicable by his objective standards) that have ever existed and granting them eternal bliss in heaven. You're saying that if God did that, it would be right?

In the situation above, would God's actions be considered evil?

(09-08-2011 09:58 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
Quote:2. If you replied to #1 by acknowledging that all morality comes from God's arbitrary declarations, then you don't need to answer this one. If you add that he set these standards and they cannot be changed (And he conforms to these moral standards), then this question still applies.
God's declarations aren't arbitrary. They arise from his character. He establishes right and wrong by what he is and his commands all arise from this.

What I mean by arbitrary is that he just felt like it. He didn't base it on anything other than a whim or personal preference.

And you haven't answered the question, so I'll repeat it:

Does God conform to some moral standard?

And if so, how can we establish that without circular logic?

(09-08-2011 09:58 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
Quote:3. Do you plan on proposing that God is outside of logic or does not obey the laws of logic?
Any form of logic begins with certain premises that are acknowledged as being true and then discovers what conclusions can be reached from them. God's revelation of himself supplies the premises which we must use if we want to know the truth.

My point here is that if something you say about God leads to a contradiction, I expect you to acknowledge that and change your argument instead of resorting to "God doesn't obey the laws of logic, so he can contain contradictions" or some other nonsense. I want to get that out of the way now so I don't waste my time.

And what premises might these be? If it's along the lines of "God is real" or "God is omni-benevolent", those claims must first be established before they can be used as premises.

(09-08-2011 09:58 AM)theophilus Wrote:  He has promised to reveal himself to anyone who seeks him sincerely and is willing to do his will. Are you prepared to submit to God and serve him if you do find convincing evidence of his existence?

I've been an atheist for less than a year; before deconverting I was a Christian. I sought him, and during the period of uncertainty before I deconverted I was desperate for some reassurance that he existed. God did not seem interested in revealing himself to me. You can be sure that I have sought him sincerely, and it didn't work.

With my current perspective, I would probably not be willing to do God's will if I discovered that he exists. I can't think of any plausible reason for him wanting or needing me to(or me needing to), although if he provided one that would be a different matter. I can't really say how I'd react if he presented me with information that I hadn't considered before, since that's entirely dependent on the information he reveals.

The way I see it, if he wants something done he has the power to do it. There is no need for him to order one of his finite creations to do it for him. The only reasons he might have for ordering his creations are:

1. For their own benefit. He cares about them.
2. Because it amuses him, or he just feels like fucking with us.
3. To harm them or cause them distress. He has some sort of dislike or hatred towards them.

If a being that powerful and intelligent was worried about whether or not I worshiped him, cared about consenting adults having sex, or was willing to punish people for not believing in him when he can simply impart knowledge of his existence to every being on the planet, I would tell him to go fuck himself and carry on with my life.

As far as personal revelation being a way to know God exists, that isn't reliable. Personal experiences with the supernatural are more likely hallucinations, delusions, or other breaks from reality.
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10-08-2011, 12:08 AM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(09-08-2011 02:29 PM)angry_liberal Wrote:  
(05-08-2011 02:50 PM)myst32 Wrote:  If God is perfect why does "he" need or want to be worshiped? A perfect all knowing being by definition would not "need or want" anything.

The best theistic argument about this I have heard is that a person is most sane when he cares about something more important than himself - and God is the ultimately important thing. I quite like this argument. My issues with it are that God does not exist, and to the extent that he does he is an oversized human. Secondly the consequences of believing in God in practice seem to be rather bad.

hmm I am not catching what you mean. What does Sanity have to do with God needing or wanting? Sorry... hehehe I am confused..

“We're born alone, we live alone, we die alone. Only through our love and friendship can we create the illusion for the moment that we're not alone.” Orson Welles
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10-08-2011, 12:47 AM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(29-07-2011 11:10 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(27-07-2011 07:34 AM)AAtheist Wrote:  If god was so great and taught us well, why do we have crimes and people raping other kids? God wants that to not happen, right?
He gave us the power to choose what we do and many people choose to do evil. He could have made a race of robots who would always do what they were programmed to do but he chose not to do this.

If you are correct, and I dont believe you are, how is god's rights to create misery for man and beast ever established? What is the criterion of god's intrinsic worth?If a god who is omniscient creates creatures that he knows cannot follow his instructions than he is worse than that which he constructs.
A god beyond peer evaluation is surely simply a tyrant and could only coerce his creations. You really need to justify gods decency, as is usually part of the definition,before making him epitomise the ultimate goodness etc of the Universe. Cool
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11-08-2011, 09:53 AM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(09-08-2011 01:32 PM)The_observer Wrote:  
(07-08-2011 12:40 PM)theophilus Wrote:  
(05-08-2011 02:50 PM)myst32 Wrote:  If God is perfect why does "he" need or want to be worshiped? A perfect all knowing being by definition would not "need or want" anything.
He doesn't need our worship; we need to worship him.
If god doesn't need our worship, then why would we go to hell for not doing it?
God's nature is such that he can't endure sin and must remove it and we have all sinned. That is why we must either accept the forgiveness that God offers us through Jesus Christ or be condemned to hell. In the New Testament one of the words that is translated as "hell" is Gehenna. That is the name of a valley near Jerusalem where the trash and garbage from the city were taken and burned. That illustrates the purpose of hell. God created the universe perfect but because some of his creatures used the free will he gave them to disobey it became filled with moral trash that needs to be disposed of. God created hell for that purpose.

If we could go to heaven without having our sins forgiven it is possible that we would suffer there more than we would in hell. Isaiah 6:1-6 tells how Isaiah responded when he received a vision of God.
Quote: In the year that King Uzziah died I saw the Lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up; and the train of his robe filled the temple. Above him stood the seraphim. Each had six wings: with two he covered his face, and with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew. And one called to another and said:
“Holy, holy, holy is the Lord of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!”
And the foundations of the thresholds shook at the voice of him who called, and the house was filled with smoke. And I said: “Woe is me! For I am lost; for I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips; for my eyes have seen the King, the Lord of hosts!”
Then one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a burning coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. And he touched my mouth and said: “Behold, this has touched your lips; your guilt is taken away, and your sin atoned for.”
God is perfect light and his presence enables us to see everything, including our own sinfulness. Isaiah was a prophet who had been serving God and yet he couldn't bear God's presence without having his sins removed. How much worse would heaven be for someone who had never even made an effort to serve God?

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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12-08-2011, 09:25 AM
 
RE: A confused Atheist..
So I take it I won't be getting any actual answers from you, right? Can't say that's a surprise, although I was still hoping for one.
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13-08-2011, 08:47 AM
RE: A confused Atheist..
(12-08-2011 09:25 AM)Zach Wrote:  So I take it I won't be getting any actual answers from you, right? Can't say that's a surprise, although I was still hoping for one.
Only God can give you the answers you are looking for and perhaps he will do so if you begin studying the Bible with an open mind and ask him to help you. But we will never have all of our questions answered during this life. The apostle Paul probably know more about God than anyone else who ever lived but in 1 Corinthians 13:12 he said,
Quote:For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

The information in ancient libraries came from real minds of real people. The far more complex information in cells came from the far more intelligent mind of God.
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13-08-2011, 12:43 PM
 
RE: A confused Atheist..
(13-08-2011 08:47 AM)theophilus Wrote:  
(12-08-2011 09:25 AM)Zach Wrote:  So I take it I won't be getting any actual answers from you, right? Can't say that's a surprise, although I was still hoping for one.
Only God can give you the answers you are looking for and perhaps he will do so if you begin studying the Bible with an open mind and ask him to help you. But we will never have all of our questions answered during this life. The apostle Paul probably know more about God than anyone else who ever lived but in 1 Corinthians 13:12 he said,
Quote:For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.

No, the questions I was asking were directed at you and were about your particular imaginary friend. You only seem interested in avoiding questions and quoting scripture at me, and you seem incapable of understanding why circular reasoning does not make a valid argument.

You also seem incapable of understanding that I have read much of the Bible, and that I know perfectly well that the only response I would get from you or any Christian is that I need to read more of it. If I read it cover to cover, I would be told to read it with an open mind(by which a Christian means: with the assumption that it's the inspired word of a deity and without any skepticism). Then I would be told that I'm not interpreting it right, that my skepticism and refusal to just take it as fact with no evidence is closed-minded.

No progress can be made when you have the assumption that you're right and cannot possibly be wrong about your position. I'm perfectly willing to believe you and accept your position as correct, but I can't do that without a good reason. So far you've provided zero reasons to think Christianity is any less ridiculous than I previously thought, but you have managed to give me another example of good old religious circular logic.

Try actually replying to my questions about your God's morals, or giving me one reason why the Bible or Christianity should be given any more consideration than the hundreds of other religions out there.
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13-08-2011, 04:14 PM
RE: A confused Atheist..
Aatheist, if you're still there (and i sure wouldn't blame you for walking out),

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain; he's just a sock-puppet. God knows whose.

If you pray to anything, you're prey to anything.
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13-08-2011, 11:00 PM (This post was last modified: 13-08-2011 11:04 PM by Thomas.)
RE: A confused Atheist..
I'm always amazed at the christian who demands the atheist be "open minded" to their belief and are "insulted" if they are not.

If the question is "Can you be open to the idea that a creator exists based on no evidence, just blind faith?", there is nothing to be open minded about.

No rational thinking person will believe something that is completely unfounded at any level.
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