A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
22-07-2013, 11:31 AM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2013 11:36 AM by Raptor Jesus.)
A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
I’m going to leave out the details, and just share the outline of the conversation. I’m sure most of you can fill in the details yourself as I’m sure most of you know what they would be.

I don’t recall exactly how the conversation started, but it had to do something with God’s law, or what he expects of us, or commands, or something like that. I might have been about gay marriage, I don’t really recall. But whatever it was I do remember I replied with, “accorded to that same reasoning we shouldn’t eat clam chowder either because the bible says it’s an abomination”.

She did not believe this was in the bible. I showed her that it is and it says it’s an abomination (depending on which translation you read), the exact same as a man having sex with another man. I also shared with her various other problematic Mosaic laws.

She said that those were the old laws, and that, since Jesus, they no longer apply to us. I reminded her that Jesus said that he did not come to end the old laws, but to fulfill them.

She said that those laws weren’t the laws he was talking about because they are man’s laws not God’s laws. The only laws Jesus was referring to were those that came directly from God, which means Jesus was only referring to the Ten Commandments when he said that. She said that the only reason all that other stuff is in the bible is to show us how bad and evil man used to be, so that when reading the bible we would understand how much we needed Jesus to save us when he finally arrived in the bible. (It’s important to note here that at this point while she thought these were “man’s laws” not God’s she considered many of these to be bad laws)

I showed her that those “bad laws” were dictated directly from God to Mosses for him to tell the Israelites.

She paused for some time, and I could see her mind trying to come up with some bullshit to reason that away. Despite the fact that she had only just learned about this specific information, she nearly immediately had an answer for it. She finally said that God told Mosses to tell the ISRAELITES, not us, not the gentiles.

I asked, wouldn’t it be the same for everyone if they are God’s laws, then they are just the law. She said the Israelites are God’s chosen people so God holds them to a higher standard than us Gentiles. That’s where I stopped and said, “come on…you have to know that’s bullshit”. Even though I watched her as she made it up, I don’t think she does.

I told her, I'm pretty sure that means gay people can get married then...she disagreed.

...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2013, 11:59 AM
RE: A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
Nice job at planting some seeds of doubt. (It's also an abomination to plant more than one seed per hole.) Wink
It sounds like she's still enjoying drinking that Kool-Aid for the time being, though.

[Image: images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRcmPL4codsbtiJhpFav3r...-w_49ttW6a]
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Jeffasaurus's post
22-07-2013, 12:42 PM
RE: A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
Hey Raptor Jebus, good job.
http://www.thethinkingatheist.com/forum/...rah?page=2
Scroll down to 19.

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Bucky Ball's post
22-07-2013, 12:58 PM
RE: A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
(22-07-2013 11:59 AM)Jeffasaurus Wrote:  Nice job at planting some seeds of doubt. (It's also an abomination to plant more than one seed per hole.) Wink
It sounds like she's still enjoying drinking that Kool-Aid for the time being, though.

It’s funny because I often don’t bother to bring certain things like this up when the opportunity presents itself because I figure it’s an old argument. I know most Christians don’t really know what’s in the bible, but I tend to not bring up the “shell-fish is an abomination” point in reference to homosexuality because it seems like a worn argument, but they really have never heard it! It really is surprising to them. And it really is amazing to me how little they know. Not just of what is in the bible, but of the arguments against their view points.

I felt like I was trotting out a tired hackney argument with the shell-fish thing, but she had no idea and it allowed me to make her think about things she hadn’t ever bothered to think about.

A lot of them know that there are horrible atrocities in the bible, and I always assume either they have some cognitive dissonance to them, or figure they are just stories about the people of the time, and not God’s actions. But I always figure they at least know about them, but it seems most do not. And even if they do, most still don’t realize that God is personally responsible for almost all of the atrocities.

I also told her about God using two bears to maul to death 42 children for the minor act of making fun of someone’s bald head. I thought that was a hackney shot too, but she had no idea, didn’t believe me, and had to look it up. Then once she verified the story she had to try to look up on the internet some way to justify the action. She finally, after consulting the internet, said that in the original Hebrew it the word for children was actually a reference to older children (as if that makes it okay) and then gave this whole larger depiction of the events of the story and all this other meaning and stuff that happened that is never stated in the bible.

And once she read that someone else explained it and said it's a reasonable responce to murder those children with bears, she was suddenly fine with it. Even if she probably still finds it horrible, as long as some other christian "authority" (on the internet) says it's okay she no longer has to think about the morality of it and now believes it's just.

But you're right...they are simply seeds.

...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2013, 01:25 PM
RE: A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
(17-05-2012 05:56 PM)Bucky Ball Wrote:  [font=Verdana]
...Anyhow...so the myth most likely got imported/appropriated by the editors of of Genesis, when they were creating the National Story, and they used a common conventional myth from the time to make their point about hospitality, or rather IN-hospitality. The myth of Lot, in Genesis 19, about the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, follows upon the story in Genesis 18 of Abraham, and his hospitality towards wandering strangers , (who turned out, in the myth, to be angels). So the ONLY way to understand Sodom and Gomorrah, is to keep it in context. It has NOTHING to do with sex. It all about the treatment of strangers, and stands as an example if IN-hospitality toward strangers, juxtaposed with the Abrahamic example of hospitality towards wandering strangers in the desert environment, which, of course could present a fatal danger...

Hey Bucky, I looked at your link and I’m glad you brought that up because the quote above that I took form it is essentially what I told her. I explained it in a slightly different way, but either way she realized she couldn’t really focus on that story as being about gay sex. I’m sure she still thinks it is, but she knows she can’t really make that argument because it is not in fact what the bible says it’s about, but what she’s always been told it’s about.

She lost all her arguments that she could make against homosexuality using the bible, even the verse that most clearly is against homosexuality because she herself throw it out in the conversation I started this thread with. So in the end she had to revise her argument, not as the bible says it’s wrong, but that obviously it’s not in line with God’s plan when he made Adam and Eve. But I pointed out that “obviously” is a personal judgment that she made, not that the bible told her.

She can’t make that argument based on anything from the bible anymore, but only from her own personal feelings about it. It really forced her to expose that, her ideas about homosexuality being wrong, are her own that she has used the bible to support. And just like eating clam chowder, she can either chose to focus on it being wrong, or not. She now realizes that she doesn’t have her safety net to defend her bigoted beliefs. Maybe she can with others, but she now knows her bigotry is exposed with me, and she is simply expressing her own views, not religious ones.

I do think that idea will ware on her at least a little, because I don’t think she is actually okay with being a bigot, I think she just felt protected with it by her church so she ever had to look inward with it. It’s not me who hates homosexuality, it’s God…kind of thing.

...
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2013, 01:48 PM
RE: A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
I've heard theists argue between each other if they shouldn't be following all the laws.


God is a concept by which we measure our pain -- John Lennon

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2013, 04:35 PM
RE: A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
Quote:She finally said that God told Mosses to tell the ISRAELITES, not us, not the gentiles.

The sneakiness of theists knows no bounds.

[Image: 3cdac7eec8f6b059070d9df56f50a7ae.jpg]
Now with 40% more awesome.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes earmuffs's post
22-07-2013, 05:03 PM (This post was last modified: 22-07-2013 05:08 PM by Bucky Ball.)
RE: A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
Try throwing this at her.
http://www.ted.com/talks/david_pizarro_t...sgust.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XuVSWhpVSqA
The reason she's conservative, is the disgust response. Tongue

Insufferable know-it-all.Einstein
Those who were seen dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music - Friedrich Nietzsche
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
22-07-2013, 05:06 PM
RE: A conversation w/ a Theist friend about God's Law
I don't think most christians read the bible through and through. Some do of course, but the majority, I think, simply enjoy going to church and getting spoon fed parts of the bible. They might look up those passages when they get home and try to divine some deeper meaning from it all, but that's where it ends.

They have this set thing within their minds and "that's the way it is".
When someone comes along and actually makes them think about what is in their "hot dog of a bible", it makes them cringe a bit.

Of course that passes with time and they will still enjoy the hot dogs.
Over time however, those seeds you planted will hopefully take root and the natural disgust for the bible will win out.

Insanity - doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: