A conversation with my wife goes like this...
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
28-05-2015, 11:36 AM (This post was last modified: 28-05-2015 01:10 PM by Tonechaser77.)
A conversation with my wife goes like this...
This is slightly odd. My wife has been dealing with my backsliddeness over the past two years in bits and chunks. I can only imagine how unbelievably scared she is however she won't sit down and talk to me about it, she will only say she's praying for me.

Over the past 6 months I have refused to pray with our kids, etc and let her do it. She tries to squeeze prayer out of me in front of them at bed time, saying things like "It's daddy's turn to pray, right boys?" to which of course they jump on the bandwagon with, yay, daddy, you pray. I always deflect back to mom. She knows my struggle and where I'm settling in as a nonbeliever but last night, refusing to pray put her over the edge. She would not talk to me the remainder of the night or this morning.

Finally I sent her a text message this morning because we communicate like that throughout the day. Here is what evolved:

Me: I hope you're okay. I can't help but think something was bothering you last night as you seemed standoffish and annoyed. If you want to talk about it, I'm here to listen, I love you. Have a beautiful day!

No response.

Five hours later: Me:Hi. Are you okay? Not talking to me? Sad

Her: Sorry it's been crazy at work. I am sad because we have two little boys that are looking to you to pray and you won't. Even the little things influence their lives. They recognize that you are not praying. I just hope that whatever you're dealing with, that you come back to us! We need you as the spiritual leader of our household. I love you more than you know. I pray for you every day and night for protection. I know you're in there and you're dealing with stuff and at the end of the day I need you at all levels. One of your beset qualities that I have seen from the beginning was your heart and love for god.

Me: Sigh* I know you think this is something I'm dealing with but it's much deeper than that. When I read my bible with an open mind and see what god commanded: the right to own and beat humans as slaves, women's values half that of a man's, ridiculous laws, killing of hundreds of thousands of people, I'm sorry but I cannot worship or pray to a deity when I am more morally sound than said god.

When I see the suffering that god has ultimately allowed, the children that die from disease, starvation, lack of drinking water or crazy weather patterns how can I thank god for what I have when I am implicating that he can provide for me but not for them? How can i pray to someone that I know has less of a moral compass than I do? So does it make sense that a god allows this or does it make more sense that this is how humanity has evolved and we are better apt to solve these issues on our own, without a good god, which cannot justifiably exist under the previously mentioned terms and conditions?

I will not push anyone else in our family to NOT believe, but I also cannot condone anyone blindly accepting all the things I talked about above without a reason. I should not be judged by your belief that I will somehow contaminate our kids just because I ask the hard questions that others are not willing to ask and settle into different conclusions than they do. Conclusions that make more sense to me. It does not mean I can't love, it does not mean I can't do good and be a moral person. We are all able to do all that on our own apart from any god.

And just so you know I have prayed. I have prayed for 24 months, balling my eyes out for answers on my commute to and from work, which I have told you before. Begging god to show up in my life and give me confirmation. What do i get? Nothing. I have tried praying for things that I know could only be answered by him...what do I get? Nothing. It's either a yes, no or maybe later.....? Hmmm how convenient god.

The fact is this: it is much more reasonable that man invented the concept of god out of his fear of the unknown. When we evolved to consciousness and could think about those types of things, it had to be a scary concept. The ancients used to believe in gods of thunder, lightning, rain, etc. They thought their gods lived in mountains (even Yahweh in Mt. Sinai). All because they didn't understand our weather patterns and how the earth worked. As we have gained knowledge and understanding we know now that there is no god for thunder or lightning or rain. god doesn't live in a mountain like the ancients believed. But those beliefs evolved because people are still afraid of the unknown. The thought of god being in control brings them comfort. I get that, and if you want to believe that, I accept it. But that belief just doesn't make sense to me now.

Despite all this, I love you so much. I love our kids inexplicably. My love grows for our family more and more every day. It's a fantastic feeling to experience life with you and I have started to drink in and appreciate the complexity that our world presents and how little we know as each day passes. This journey is waking me up to what is real and tangible. Our life here and now. In the end all we are is a collection of memories. I would never discourage you and our kids from any religion, much less christianity. I would only ask that you examine your beliefs and the evidence they are based on, not the culture you grew up in or household belief. If someone wants to believe in god then dammit they better know why the believe and be able to prove it. It cannot be a matter of faith because other people in other religions who have never heard of Jesus have faith in their god and are living the best they know how given their circumstances. Yet they are going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus? To say Christians are correct and other religions are wrong is a false argument with attempt to cite the christian case as an exception to the norm. This is called special pleading and it is a logical fallacy that isn't coherent.

For me there are too many holes. After I have examined, my best analogy is that it is a house of cards, when you start pulling the cards out, the house collapses.

Her: I am sorry that you feel i am judging you, Cuz it's not that... I'm just concerned about you.

Me: I know you don't FEEL like you are judging me and to you, your concern and being scared is real, it's sincere but let's drill down on your concern. Why are you concerned? You're concerned because you think I am on my way to hell and that my way of thinking will contaminate our kids into thinking the same way, thus sending them to hell. That's the bottom line i think right? But think about it, we can't even know there is a hell. The bible doesn't even agree with itself on hell. It contradicts itself and a perfect loving god would not allow humans to contaminate his perfect word so that confusion would be instilled would he? Would that make sense? Yet the bible is chocked full of thousands of contradictions that only insert confusion. If you sit down and study it sincerely, you can easily perceive that.

(At this point i'll interject to say that I lost her as evident by her next response)

Her: What is the name of the weed killer you want?

(a funny ending to a rather serious morning.) However, I now know she sees where I am at. She may not understand and before she would not sit down and talk to me about it because of fear. I think she is afraid of not believing herself. I have to break things down into minuscule bites. My saga continues......Confused

**Crickets** -- God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like Tonechaser77's post
28-05-2015, 11:56 AM
RE: A conversation with my wife goes like this...
I've heard that Christbgone is the best weed-killer on the market, even though the weed is pernicious.

In seriousness, best of luck to you. I don't have any good advice for you because I have no idea how I'd handle losing my faith in front of my wife and kids, but I hope you keeps your words moderate and your love for her in mind, even if things don't work as you hope.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 4 users Like Thumpalumpacus's post
28-05-2015, 12:05 PM
RE: A conversation with my wife goes like this...
(28-05-2015 11:36 AM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  This is slightly odd. My wife has been dealing with my backsliddeness over the past two years in bits and chunks. I can only imagine how unbelievably scared she is however she won't sit down and talk to me about it, she will only say she's praying for me.

Over the past 6 months I have refused to pray with our kids, etc and let her do it. She tries to squeeze prayer out of me in front of them at bed time, saying things like "It's daddy's turn to pray, right boys?" to which of course they jump on the bandwagon with, yay, daddy, you pray. I always deflect back to mom. She knows my struggle and where I'm settling in as a nonbeliever but last night, refusing to pray put her over the edge. She would not talk to me the remainder of the night or this morning.

Finally I sent her a text message this morning because we communicate like that throughout the day. Here is what evolved:

Me: I hope you're okay. I can't help but think something was bothering you last night as you seemed standoffish and annoyed. If you want to talk about it, I'm here to listen, I love you. Have a beautiful day!

No response.

Five hours later: Me:Hi. Are you okay? Not talking to me? Sad

Her: Sorry it's been crazy at work. I am sad because we have two little boys that are looking to you to pray and you won't. Even the little things influence their lives. They recognize that you are not praying. I just hope that whatever you're dealing with, that you come back to us! We need you as the spiritual leader of our household. I love you more than you know. I pray for you every day and night for protection. I know you're in there and you're dealing with stuff and at the end of the day I need you at all levels. One of your beset qualities that I have seen from the beginning was your heart and love for god.

Me: Sigh* I know you think this is something I'm dealing with but it's much deeper than that. When I read my bible with an open mind and see what god commanded: the right to own and beat humans as slaves, women's values half that of a man's, ridiculous laws, killing of hundreds of thousands of people, I'm sorry but I cannot worship or pray to a deity when I am more morally sound than said god.

When I see the suffering that god has ultimately allowed, the children that die from disease, starvation, lack of drinking water or crazy weather patterns how can I thank god for what I have when I am implicating that he can provide for me but not for them? How can i pray to someone that I know has less of a moral compass than I do? So does it make more sense that a god allows this or does it make more sense that this is humanity which has evolved and is getting better to solve these issues on our own, without a good god, which cannot justifiably exist?

I will not push anyone else in our family to NOT believe, but I also cannot condone anyone blindly accepting all the things I talked about above without a reason. I should not be judged by your thinking that I will somehow contaminate our kids just because I ask the hard questions that others' are not willing to ask and settle into different conclusions than you do. Conclusions that make more sense. It does not mean I can't love, it does not mean I can't do good and be a moral person. Anyone is able to do all that on their own.

And just so you know I have prayed. I have prayed for 24 months, balling my eyes out for answers on my commute to and from work, which I have told you before. Begging god to show up in my life and give me confirmation. What do i get? Nothing. I have tried praying for things that I know could only be answered by him...what do I get? Nothing. It's either a yes, no or maybe later.....? Hmmm how convenient god.

The fact is this: it is much more reasonable that man invented the concept of god out of his fear of the unknown. When we evolved to consciousness and could think about those types of things, it had to be a scary concept. The ancients used to believe in gods of thunder, lightning, rain, etc. They thought their gods lived in mountains (even Yahweh in Mt. Sinai, i think). All because they didn't understand our weather patterns and how the earth worked. As we have gained knowledge and understanding we know now that their is no god for thunder or lightning or rain. god doesn't live in a mountain like the ancients believed. But those beliefs evolved because people are still afraid of the unknown. The thought of god being in control brings them comfort. I get that, and if you want to believe that, I accept it. But that belief just doesn't make sense to me now.

Despite all this, I love you so much. I love our kids inexplicably. My love grows for our family more and more every day. It's a fantastic feeling to experience life with you and I have started to drink in and appreciate the complexity and how little we know as each day passes. This journey is waking me up to what is real and tangible. Our life here and now. In the end all we are is a collection of memories. I would never discourage you and our kids from any religion, much less christianity. I would only ask that you examine your beliefs and the evidence they are based on, not the culture you grew up in or household belief. If someone wants to believe in god then dammit they better know why the believe and be able to prove it. It cannot be a matter of faith because other people in other religions who have never heard of Jesus have faith in their god and are living the best they know how given their circumstances. Yet they are going to hell because they don't believe in Jesus? To say Christians are correct and other religions are wrong is a false argument with attempt to site the christian case as an exception to the norm. This is called special pleading and it is a logical fallacy that isn't coherent.

For me there are too many holes. After I have examined, my best analogy is that it is a house of cards, when you start pulling the cards out, the house collapses.

Her: I am sorry that you feel i am judging you, Cuz it's not that... I'm just concerned about you.

Me: I know you don't FEEL like you are judging me and to you, your concern and being scared is real, it's sincere but let's drill down on your concern. Why are you concerned? You're concerned because you think I am on my way to hell and that my way of thinking will contaminate our kids into thinking the same way, thus sending them to hell. That's the bottom line i think right? But think about it, we can't even know there is a hell. The bible doesn't even agree with itself on hell. It contradicts itself and a perfect loving god would not allow humans to contaminate his perfect word so that confusion would be instilled would he? Would that make sense? Yet the bible is chocked full of thousands of contradictions that only insert confusion. If you sit down and study it sincerely, you can easily perceive that.

(At this point i'll interject to say that I lost her)

Her: What is the name of the weed killer you want?

(a funny ending to a rather serious morning.) However, I now know she sees where I am at. She may not understand and before she would not sit down and talk to me about it because of fear. I think she is afraid of not believing herself. I have to break things down into minuscule bites. My saga continues......Confused

So sorry you are going through all of that Sad
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 2 users Like jennybee's post
28-05-2015, 01:51 PM
RE: A conversation with my wife goes like this...
Quote:Over the past 6 months I have refused to pray with our kids, etc and let her do it. She tries to squeeze prayer out of me in front of them at bed time, saying things like "It's daddy's turn to pray, right boys?"

You think this comes from a genuine place? Or rather that she's trying to use your kids against you to make you feel guilty?

Quote:I should not be judged by your thinking that I will somehow contaminate our kids just because I ask the hard questions

Also, don't you get any say in the matter of raising your kids? I guess it makes sense if you both started the family as theists, with you leaving the fold only after the fact.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2015, 01:56 PM
RE: A conversation with my wife goes like this...
(28-05-2015 01:51 PM)Gilgamesh Wrote:  
Quote:Over the past 6 months I have refused to pray with our kids, etc and let her do it. She tries to squeeze prayer out of me in front of them at bed time, saying things like "It's daddy's turn to pray, right boys?"

You think this comes from a genuine place? Or rather that she's trying to use your kids against you to make you feel guilty?

Quote:I should not be judged by your thinking that I will somehow contaminate our kids just because I ask the hard questions

Also, don't you get any say in the matter of raising your kids? I guess it makes sense if you both started the family as theists, with you leaving the fold only after the fact.

1.) I think it's a mixture of both...definitely. Sometimes her responses are sincere, sometimes out of frustration she turns passive-aggressive.

2.) I should get say, yes, and you are also correct that we both started as theists and now I have deviated. I am walking softly for now because I do really love her and I don't want to lose my marriage, however, if it comes to that, it just does.

**Crickets** -- God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2015, 02:05 PM
RE: A conversation with my wife goes like this...
What's your sense of the flow of events? Do you feel like you're behind the curve, and chasing, or do you feel like you have an honest chance at coming to a modus vivendi?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2015, 02:25 PM
RE: A conversation with my wife goes like this...
We need you as the spiritual leader of our household.

What does that entail?
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2015, 02:38 PM
RE: A conversation with my wife goes like this...
(28-05-2015 02:05 PM)Thumpalumpacus Wrote:  What's your sense of the flow of events? Do you feel like you're behind the curve, and chasing, or do you feel like you have an honest chance at coming to a modus vivendi?

It varies from day to day honestly. I think if she were to be completely transparent with me that she would say she is scared to lose who I was. The guy she fell in love with was a hardcore christian crazy in love with god (i.e. the voices in his head). That's what drew her to me, among other things. For the most part at this time I do feel like we can reach a modus vivendi mainly because I have not gone on the offensive to deconvert her or the kids. However, if it comes up I don't shy away from the discussion with them (kids) as far as how to recognize fallacies within a set of beliefs etc. They are still young, 6 and 3, so I'm sure the majority of it falls on ears that are too young to understand. My fundamentalist childhood was horrible in many respects so I don't want that for them. I don't want them to fear watching a movie because they will miss the rapture; fear moving away from home because god won't approve; or fear not taking a philosophy class in college because it might jeopardize their belief system. That kind of shit did major psychological damage on me and took me 10 years to work through.

**Crickets** -- God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Tonechaser77's post
28-05-2015, 02:44 PM
RE: A conversation with my wife goes like this...
(28-05-2015 02:25 PM)Nishi Karano Kaze Wrote:  We need you as the spiritual leader of our household.

What does that entail?

The typical christian propaganda nonsense: Praying over your kids and family. Talking to them about god so that it is ingrained in their thinking. Keeping a daily relationship with god. Bible reading (which I still do). Attending church (which I still do because I enjoy the music and still play in the band). Being an godly example for others. Weeping

**Crickets** -- God
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
28-05-2015, 02:48 PM
RE: A conversation with my wife goes like this...
(28-05-2015 02:44 PM)Tonechaser77 Wrote:  
(28-05-2015 02:25 PM)Nishi Karano Kaze Wrote:  We need you as the spiritual leader of our household.

What does that entail?

The typical christian propaganda nonsense: Praying over your kids and family. Talking to them about god so that it is ingrained in their thinking. Keeping a daily relationship with god. Bible reading (which I still do). Attending church (which I still do because I enjoy the music and still play in the band). Being an godly example for others. Weeping
I see. Sorry that I don't have any useful input. It's an entirely alien situation for me. I hope she will see and understand that you are still (hopefully) a good father, husband and person.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
[+] 1 user Likes Nishi Karano Kaze's post
Post Reply
Forum Jump: