A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
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11-12-2013, 01:21 PM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
(11-12-2013 11:49 AM)Brian37 Wrote:  "Capitalism" is not a form of government. Goverments all use politics and resources to sell commodities to themselves and to other countries. Gadaffi was a billionaire who owned stock in GE. China makes money off selling cheep goods off slave wages. Saudi Arabia sells oil.

The abuse is global corporatism and both open societies and fascist political states attempt to a greater or lesser degree to "capitalize" off the buying and selling of resources.

I never said it was a form of government. Free market capitalism actually means a lack of a government, or at least a very small one. I'm not sure I get what you're trying to point out.

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11-12-2013, 01:51 PM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
(11-12-2013 01:19 PM)NL Atheist Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 10:48 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  By definition you are no longer in an Anarcho system once you have a Police force. Anarchy is untenable and requires ignoring all of reality to even think it could work. What you two have just proposed is the system we have right now. Honestly I think the Scandinavians have the correct approach to government with an inclusive society that cares for it's members. Taxes are high but you get a lot for them.

I never said that I wanted a police force in the way we have it now. Community watches carry authority, yet they are not a police force in the sense that we have it now. They are appointed by the community and are a part of it.

As for anarchism requiring ignoring reality: I have yet to see you prove that to me.

I never meant this thread to be a discussion about anarchism, I made it to prove that free market capitalism is not a good system.

Free Market Capitalism is not a system as for as governance is concerned. In fact any system of government can employ a free market to some degree or other. Personally I think that the market is a transitory stage and is not an end point. What it will evolve into is hard to say but the constant cycles of boom and bust is not healthy for long term growth and well being.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

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11-12-2013, 04:58 PM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
Is anyone actually going to defend free market capitalism in this thread? It seems we all agree that there at least needs to be substantial regulation of a capitalist economy for it to function well, if not get rid of capitalism entirely.
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11-12-2013, 05:03 PM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
(11-12-2013 04:58 PM)Valsyrie Wrote:  Is anyone actually going to defend free market capitalism in this thread? It seems we all agree that there at least needs to be substantial regulation of a capitalist economy for it to function well, if not get rid of capitalism entirely.

It is better than the barter system or anything else we have right now, however it is by no means perfect and as I said I don't think it can last indefinitely.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

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11-12-2013, 05:30 PM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
(11-12-2013 05:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is better than the barter system or anything else we have right now, however it is by no means perfect and as I said I don't think it can last indefinitely.

I may agree with that depending on what you mean by "anything else we have." The entire world is capitalist right now (China and Cuba are not "communist" in any meaningful sense of the word), so if what you mean by "anything else we have" is "any economic system currently in existence" then it would be tautologically true that capitalism is the better than anything else. But that would also imply that it's worse than anything else, because it's the only system in existence.

If you instead mean "any economic system ever conceived," then I would strongly disagree. Also by the way, and this is just nit-picking on my part, no barter system has actually existed. The old story that we used to barter for things and that got hard so we came up with money is just that, a story. Adam Smith made it up in Wealth of Nations. Actual societies before the creation of money generally used a kind of credit system. Debt came before money, not the other way around.
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11-12-2013, 05:38 PM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
(11-12-2013 05:30 PM)Valsyrie Wrote:  
(11-12-2013 05:03 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  It is better than the barter system or anything else we have right now, however it is by no means perfect and as I said I don't think it can last indefinitely.

I may agree with that depending on what you mean by "anything else we have." The entire world is capitalist right now (China and Cuba are not "communist" in any meaningful sense of the word), so if what you mean by "anything else we have" is "any economic system currently in existence" then it would be tautologically true that capitalism is the better than anything else. But that would also imply that it's worse than anything else, because it's the only system in existence.

If you instead mean "any economic system ever conceived," then I would strongly disagree. Also by the way, and this is just nit-picking on my part, no barter system has actually existed. The old story that we used to barter for things and that got hard so we came up with money is just that, a story. Adam Smith made it up in Wealth of Nations. Actual societies before the creation of money generally used a kind of credit system. Debt came before money, not the other way around.

I was referring to the failed experiments in communism, yes I am aware that everyone is using some version of a Market now (to varying degrees of "free") and I think it is an evolutionary reason it is the best able to adapt and survive. Other systems are not as flexible (Mercantilism for instance), I mean there is a reason we use use the free market right now, flawed as it is.

As to bartering it was always around but yes you are correct it was not the mainstay of any society simply because it is too limited to be of widespread use. There are coins from the early egyptian dynasties and I believe some from the Sumerians as well, so some form of currency has been in use for all of recorded history before that of course is anyone guess.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense

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11-12-2013, 05:51 PM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
(11-12-2013 05:38 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  I was referring to the failed experiments in communism, yes I am aware that everyone is using some version of a Market now (to varying degrees of "free") and I think it is an evolutionary reason it is the best able to adapt and survive. Other systems are not as flexible (Mercantilism for instance), I mean there is a reason we use use the free market right now, flawed as it is.

As to bartering it was always around but yes you are correct it was not the mainstay of any society simply because it is too limited to be of widespread use. There are coins from the early egyptian dynasties and I believe some from the Sumerians as well, so some form of currency has been in use for all of recorded history before that of course is anyone guess.

I think we agree too much to argue about the actual topic of this thread Confused. If you're an Ayn Rand-worshipping anarcho-capitalist reading this post right now, please reply so we can get a discussion going.
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15-12-2013, 10:33 PM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
(10-12-2013 06:28 PM)Valsyrie Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 05:59 PM)NL Atheist Wrote:  A functioning anarchist society (in my opinion with minimal state, just for upholding the constitution and on a lower federal level other laws) needs a better educated and more caring society in general. It needs a revolution of sorts.

If an anarchist society can include a minimal state to take care of crime, then I've got no problem with anarchism.

I understand your thought, our current economy is our own construct, not a force of nature. With a will, we can change it or modify it. The problems some people believe the economy and our political system are a force of nature.....maybe human nature. but not nature.
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16-12-2013, 06:36 AM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
(15-12-2013 10:33 PM)shallwechat71 Wrote:  
(10-12-2013 06:28 PM)Valsyrie Wrote:  If an anarchist society can include a minimal state to take care of crime, then I've got no problem with anarchism.

I understand your thought, our current economy is our own construct, not a force of nature. With a will, we can change it or modify it. The problems some people believe the economy and our political system are a force of nature.....maybe human nature. but not nature.

There is indeed a huge mentality of "the current system is the best we can do".
That very attitude stops progress. If we're not willing to try new things in order to improve society, then why are we even practicing politics anymore.

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16-12-2013, 07:38 AM
RE: A critique of free market capitalism (using the Coase theorem)
Lol,y'all using big words n shit

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