A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
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18-03-2013, 05:13 PM
A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
Okay, this discussion was decided to be set up from another discussion in another forum (it was agreed this would be a more appropriate section to discuss political matters). I have invited forum veteran bbeljefe to join me for this discussion/debate.

The first topic I would like to bring up is probably the most significant one we face today, the economy and how to get it back on track. Personally I think that the quickest and best way to get the economy kick started in the US is to sign a generous tax cut for the lower, middle, and lower upper classes, which will put more money in the pockets of the people who fall into these tax categories. At the same time the spending of disposable income should be encouraged, as this will increase the circulation of money, getting the economy going again.

Obama promised you change. Reach in your pocket, feel those coins? There's your change...
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18-03-2013, 08:08 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
Um... I've been a member here for a whopping four more days than you, so I'm no veteran. Plus... I never served in any military. But, you can call me BB for short or, if you feel the need, you can call me anything you like.


What I am though, is an anarchist so my answer to your first comment is that the state should not tax anyone anything, as the state does not produce anything of value. That doesn't mean that some of the services the state provides aren't necessary, because they are. But it does mean that the state consumes far more money than is necessary to accomplish the provision of the services it provides. Moreover, since the state lacks market incentive, it has no way to know where some services are needed more and where some aren't needed at all. Likewise, it doesn't react to market demand, it reacts to the interests of those who call themselves government... and those people are not capable of making rational decisions about the division of labor or the provision of supply. In addition, because the state promises about three dollars worth of services for every dollar it collects in taxes, it must resort to either printing money (which causes inflation) or borrowing money (which causes inflation and burdens the unborn with debt).

Another problem with the economy in this country is the fact that it costs far too much to trade here. Manufacturing has fled this country because regulatory compliance and barriers to entry, all compliments of the state, have made it impossible to compete with foreign made products and for would be new businesses, simply impossible to start up.

As spending goes, that alone can not and will not help the economy. Saving helps the economy more than does spending because saved money is available for investment into new products, expanded facilities, et al. Spending is a by product of saving and will come as a result of money being available for investment.

If you consider the last two points I made, even saving won't help the US economy in the current environment. This is because businesses are sending R&D and manufacturing overseas. So even if there was money available to them to invest, it would not immediately be spent in this country and thus, the local economy will not immediately benefit from it.

The US government has been tinkering with the economy since the early 20th century and the results are what you see today. When investment money isn't available (as now), the state simply prints or borrows a bunch of money and dumps it on the market. This causes a short burst of investment and a short run of new jobs but, since the money being spent is being virtually given to the market, malinvestment occurs, new ventures fail and no real wealth is created. When no real wealth is created in an economy, it is doomed for failure.

In short, the US government is going to send this country into either a hyper-inflationary depression or it is going to cause the US dollar to become worthless on the global market. Or, most likely, both. They may get away with another Keynesian injection of capital and allow the economy another decade or so of false stability but even if that happens yet one more time.... the impending crash will be made all the more devastating to the poor and middle class in this country. Meanwhile, the rich corporate executives and slimy politicians who are causing all of this destruction of wealth will walk away from the pile of rubble they create with money pouring out from all of their filthy orifices.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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19-03-2013, 07:05 AM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(18-03-2013 08:08 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Um... I've been a member here for a whopping four more days than you, so I'm no veteran. Plus... I never served in any military. But, you can call me BB for short or, if you feel the need, you can call me anything you like.


What I am though, is an anarchist so my answer to your first comment is that the state should not tax anyone anything, as the state does not produce anything of value. That doesn't mean that some of the services the state provides aren't necessary, because they are. But it does mean that the state consumes far more money than is necessary to accomplish the provision of the services it provides. Moreover, since the state lacks market incentive, it has no way to know where some services are needed more and where some aren't needed at all. Likewise, it doesn't react to market demand, it reacts to the interests of those who call themselves government... and those people are not capable of making rational decisions about the division of labor or the provision of supply. In addition, because the state promises about three dollars worth of services for every dollar it collects in taxes, it must resort to either printing money (which causes inflation) or borrowing money (which causes inflation and burdens the unborn with debt).

Another problem with the economy in this country is the fact that it costs far too much to trade here. Manufacturing has fled this country because regulatory compliance and barriers to entry, all compliments of the state, have made it impossible to compete with foreign made products and for would be new businesses, simply impossible to start up.

As spending goes, that alone can not and will not help the economy. Saving helps the economy more than does spending because saved money is available for investment into new products, expanded facilities, et al. Spending is a by product of saving and will come as a result of money being available for investment.

If you consider the last two points I made, even saving won't help the US economy in the current environment. This is because businesses are sending R&D and manufacturing overseas. So even if there was money available to them to invest, it would not immediately be spent in this country and thus, the local economy will not immediately benefit from it.

The US government has been tinkering with the economy since the early 20th century and the results are what you see today. When investment money isn't available (as now), the state simply prints or borrows a bunch of money and dumps it on the market. This causes a short burst of investment and a short run of new jobs but, since the money being spent is being virtually given to the market, malinvestment occurs, new ventures fail and no real wealth is created. When no real wealth is created in an economy, it is doomed for failure.

In short, the US government is going to send this country into either a hyper-inflationary depression or it is going to cause the US dollar to become worthless on the global market. Or, most likely, both. They may get away with another Keynesian injection of capital and allow the economy another decade or so of false stability but even if that happens yet one more time.... the impending crash will be made all the more devastating to the poor and middle class in this country. Meanwhile, the rich corporate executives and slimy politicians who are causing all of this destruction of wealth will walk away from the pile of rubble they create with money pouring out from all of their filthy orifices.
Okay, I can agree with some of what you said. Except I think the system we have is fine, taxation is how we fund our military and public school systems. It's all the backdoor politics that keeps the system from working properly. There are several areas that we could increase our income and not have to raise taxes, but that would mean giving tax exempt status qualification a complete overhaul. The system is definitely flawed, there's no denying it, but at it's core, it works. The reason I think spending would help the economy is that more sales equals more money for businesses. Then the next step would be to give a deduction for companies who hire a certain amount of people within, say a year's time. This would encourage businesses to expand and hire more people which would both drop the unemployment rate, but also put more money in more people's pockets. This way there is even more people cycling money and the economy doesn't go stagnant.

Of course what would help is to find a way to repeal this Obamacare plan, it is simply going to do the opposite of what I mentioned above. Businesses won't be able to afford to hire more people because they'll be facing this huge tax increase. Not to mention that you'll wait like 6 months to see a doctor cause everyone will be using Obamacare to go to the doctor. This will clog up waiting list and as unfortunate as it may seem, more people are going to die waiting to see a doctor.
Many of these businesses that have sent the manufacturing jobs oversees are simply looking to just lower their overhead, can we agree with that? However, there is a tether effect with this as well. With companies making more profit at a lower cost, other businesses have been forced to do the same thing in order to compete. Since their first responsibility is to their stock investors, they do whatever they can to make the amount of money they need to pay the investment return amount that was agreed upon when the investor bought the stock. This also leads to a higher unemployment rate in the US, as people are getting laid off simply due to a company's need to meet their overhead and make a profit.
If businesses were making more money from consumer spending, then they would not have to resort to shipping out jobs to save a enough to pay their investors. It wouldn't be an instant fix, but within a year or two you would see a great influx in the market. Especially now that so many countries have banned GMOs (Genetically Modified Organisms), because not enough research has been done. Which will lead me to my next point, but let me finish this one first. The world is going to face a crisis as we are one of the top food producing nations in the world and much of what we export are GMOs. Once a food shortage hits the rest of the world, you will start to see either a push for research, or reverses in policy and massive amounts of food, that has at that point started to surplus, will be sold off bringing in billions for the US's GDP. My only worry is that we will sell so much of it, that we will experience a food shortage ourselves, as production cannot keep up with demand.
Now finally coming back to my final point. I know that it's written into the Bill of Rights that there should be a separation of church and state, and I agree with that wholeheartedly, but all of these organizations taking in money and not putting it back into the system, are causing nothing but harm. This along with the top elites putting money in offshore accounts that aren't taxed.

Obama promised you change. Reach in your pocket, feel those coins? There's your change...
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19-03-2013, 07:56 AM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
I'd disagree that we actually have a problem with our "economy", that is within our current system.

Our "economy" is already back on track.

It's not the "economy" stupid.

"If you say 'the economy', you show you're stupid. There's no such thing as the economy."

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-03-2013, 08:00 AM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
Whose economy?

No problems over here.

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19-03-2013, 08:38 AM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
"Except I think the system we have is fine, taxation is how we fund our
military and public school systems. It's all the backdoor politics that
keeps the system from working properly."


If the system we have were fine, we'd not be in this mess. Taxation, by any individual or entity other than the state, is pure and simply theft. And it's theft when the state does it. It doesn't matter if I would give all the money I stole from you to the most deserving charity ever, I'm still a thief. But aside from that, the military is an an out of control machine that ensures that innocent US citizens like myself are hated by most of the people on this planet... guilt by association. The school system is still modeled after the 19th century Prussion model of prison like indoctrination camps and frankly, that's what they are. Our children today are bored to absolute tears with this educational environment and instead tailoring the product to the customer, we zombify them with dangerous, often untested psychotropic drugs and tell them they're the ones who're broken. The truth is, children today are more intelligent than they were a generation ago and they're even more intelligent than they were circa 1850 when the state took over education. Not surprisingly, literacy and overall proficiency of US citizens has been on a steady decline for about that long.

As for backdoor politics, that's a part of having a nation state. Any time you grant a monopoly on the initiation of force to a small group of people, it is precisely the element of society you want to be protected from who is going to populate those positions. Moreover, democracies of any flavor are far more dangerous than monarchies for the simple reason that those who rule in a democracy have no long term interest in the health of the nation. For example... have you ever had the oil changed on a rented car? Of course not, because you won't be responsible for that car after you return it. Do you think Barack Obama is worried about the health of this nation after he has left office?

In simple terms, the system we have is based on violence and coercion and regardless of what its stated goal is.... it is working just fine for those who run it.


"Then the next step would be to give a deduction for companies who hire a certain amount of people within, say a year's time."

And like every other time that's been tried, if the economy hasn't recovered when the credits end, those new hires get laid off, new buildings become vacant and like taking heroine for a toothache, the underlying infection rages on.

"Of course what would help is to find a way to repeal this Obamacare
plan, it is simply going to do the opposite of what I mentioned above."

I'm all aboard with repealing any and all new legislation.... including this piece of garbage. But here's the problem... There won't be waiting lines and piss poor service for a good long while. Caveat: Not any more so than already, given that the state has long since infiltrated the health care industry in this country. This newly socialized medical care system will benefit from doctors and other personnel who were trained in the private sector and who still have private sector work ethics. So what will happen is that it will look like socialized health care works great. Then, after there is no turning back and a new crop of medical personnel who've been raised with a public sector work ethic take over, wait times will increase, the quality of service will tank and the US will be in the same boat as every other socialist nation. Actually, it will be much worse, because US politics is its own special brand of corrupt.

"Many of these businesses that have sent the manufacturing jobs oversees
are simply looking to just lower their overhead, can we agree with that?"


Absolutely. And I think that's great. After all, if we're to practice what we preach, they're free to do so. However, a plurality of companies that has moved production overseas has done so in lieu of closing their doors. Comdial was an American telephone system manufacturer that was over a century old when, around 2003, it had to move assembly to Mexico in order to remain competitive in the marketplace. Granted, this is probably a decade after it had stopped manufacturing plastics from raw materials.... that had already been outsourced to Asia. Semi conductor manufacture was long since abandoned. This company was solvent and again, the moving of its production facility wasn't to appease investors, it was to simply stay afloat. Unfortunately, they waited to long and finally had to sell the company to a multinational corporation somewhere around 2009. There are hundreds of thousands of Comdial stories and by comparison, only a handful of Wal-Mart stories. Americans are patriotic to a fault and small business tried its dead level best to stay here if for no other reason than religious like, blind patriotism.

You mentioned countries that have banned GMOs. I'd go a step further and ban copyright and patent altogether. Innovation is based on competition and no person should be given a monopoly right to an idea. Copyright and patent laws only serve to further enrich the wealthy and they do so at the expense of technology and , ultimately, the consumer. In fact, patent law is one of the main reasons why health care is so expensive in the US and, it's one of the main reasons we don't have any more new drugs than we do. That and the FDA.

"Now finally coming back to my final point. I know that it's written into
the Bill of Rights that there should be a separation of church and
state~"


The answer to our problems is not to ask the state to point its guns at more people. The leviathan is eating people alive and giving it more will only make it grow larger and more dangerous.

As for the Bill of Rights and the Constitution itself, Lysander Spooner said it better 160 years ago than anyone could say it today:
But whether the Constitution really be one thing,
or another, this much is certain - that it has either authorized such a
government as we have had, or has been powerless to prevent it. In
either case it is unfit to exist.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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19-03-2013, 10:04 AM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
I'd still like to know...

What is the problem with this "economy"?

Nothing in this thread really even properly addressed any economic problems, let alone provided a solution.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-03-2013, 10:22 AM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(19-03-2013 10:04 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  I'd still like to know...

What is the problem with this "economy"?

Nothing in this thread really even properly addressed any economic problems, let alone provided a solution.
With all due respect to you, if you don't think there's anything wrong with the economy in this country, there is nothing anyone can tell you that will demonstrate it.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
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19-03-2013, 11:50 AM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(19-03-2013 10:22 AM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(19-03-2013 10:04 AM)TrulyX Wrote:  I'd still like to know...

What is the problem with this "economy"?

Nothing in this thread really even properly addressed any economic problems, let alone provided a solution.
With all due respect to you, if you don't think there's anything wrong with the economy in this country, there is nothing anyone can tell you that will demonstrate it.

You didn't even address the question(s)?

What "economy"?

What "problems"?

You just responded with a false assumption ("there is nothing anyone can tell you that will demonstrate it"), based on nothing, because you have yet to show even the former ("anything wrong with 'the economy'").

I'll just write it again: Nothing in this thread really even properly addressed any economic problems, let alone provided a solution.

The Paradox Of Fools And Wise Men:
“The whole problem with the world is that fools and fanatics are always so certain of themselves, but wiser men so full of doubts.” ― Bertrand Russell
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19-03-2013, 05:17 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
Quote:If the system we have were fine, we'd not be in this mess.
This goes back to what I was saying to backdoor politics. When someone rubs elbows with elected officials they make deals with these officials and get them to work for or against legislation whichever the case may be. This has even been to the point where an organization, more specifically organized crime, has helped to get people elected in seats just for the sole purpose of getting legislation in their favor passed. When this kind of shady wheeling and dealing happens, then you get more tax breaks for the rich or big business, or loss of taxable income by organized crime. Once you start tweaking the system to fit it's new need instead of addressing the problem, that's when things get screwed up. I don't think people realize that our taxation is really a form of Socialism. Difference being that instead of collectivization of goods like Joseph Stalin did, the US simply collects money from it's citizens to disperse among the citizens in the form of government programs. At least that's the way it's supposed to work. I'm not denying the fact that the system is seriously messed up, I'd be the first one to admit it. It's just all of the shady dealing that goes on that makes the system the way it is.
A good example for the military is during the Iraqi invasion (I refuse to call it a war on grounds that Saddam wasn't the aggressor). Once the military went in and leveled the place, then Bush contracted out the rebuilding of the country to all of his friends.

Quote: I'd go a step further and ban copyright and patent altogether. Innovation is based on competition and no person should be given a monopoly right to an idea. Copyright and patent laws only serve to further enrich the wealthy and they do so at the expense of technology and , ultimately, the consumer. In fact, patent law is one of the main reasons why health care is so expensive in the US and, it's one of the main reasons we don't have any more new drugs than we do. That and the FDA.
I can agree with you about the health care issue. However, artist who take the time to make whatever form of art they create are just trying to make a living. Don't they deserve the money they worked for?

Quote: The answer to our problems is not to ask the state to point its guns at more people. The leviathan is eating people alive and giving it more will only make it grow larger and more dangerous.
I theorize that if limitations to the amount of money an estate or individual that qualified for a tax exempt status, we would see a decrease in mega-churches which take in a significant amount of money each year. That money would be cycled back into the system instead of being horded, reducing the money supply.

Obama promised you change. Reach in your pocket, feel those coins? There's your change...
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