A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
Post Reply
 
Thread Rating:
  • 0 Votes - 0 Average
  • 1
  • 2
  • 3
  • 4
  • 5
03-04-2013, 04:36 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
This shit is over my head.

You have lost this teenager.

Sorry, fellas.

[Image: 0013382F-E507-48AE-906B-53008666631C-757...cc3639.jpg]
Credit goes to UndercoverAtheist.
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 05:34 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(21-03-2013 11:19 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well here is a progressive response to some of the things stated so far. As far as the "economy" thats a nebulos semi interconnected group of statistics and factors but what we actualy do have a problem with is average worker pay being (adjusted for inflation) at one of its lowest points in history, and jobless/underemployment at record highs.
Over the last 30 years or so we have engaged in a conservative experiment where taxes and socail services are bad (see food banks and welfare) and maximum profits are good. The net result is the worst economic crash since the great depression. Taxes are at an all time low even with the recent increase on the top 1%. As a breif example of this in the recent election Mitt Romney released some tax returns where his rate was at 15% where as the average US worker pays closer to 40-50% once payroll state and sales tax are included. Lowering taxes has been tried and has failed horribly so lets try the one and only thing that has ever worked in countering widespread unemployment Government spending on infrasturcture. The benifits here are 2-fold. 1st off it infuses a lot of money into Local economies that stay in said comunities rather than tax cuts which tend to be just saved. 2ndly and more importantly 40-50% of the bridges in the USA are currently failing or close to failing without action in the next 5 years the top news story will be bridge collapses.
Next worker pay, when the minimum wage was started it was meant to be a "living wage" and it was $.19/hr it was supposed to be increased allong with inflation to keep it a living wage. This was never done due to scare tactics and false information by corporate intrests which always claim (falsely as every study has proven) that raising the minimum wage will cause layoffs or loss of profits. Adjusted for inflation and worker productivity that $.19 should right now be $33.50/hr. When we first set up this program the average CEO made roughly 10-20 times what the average worker did today the gulf is now closer to 300 times. http://ed.msnbc.com/_news/2012/01/12/101...chart?lite I apologise for the animation on said chart but it was the most apt for the point I was making.
Now even Beohner has been caught on camera admiting that there is no immediate deficit problem, borrowing is basicaly at 1 to 1 and we do have huge unemployment numbers so the answer is to do a much larger stimulus bill to get the economy moving again. Next we need to completly redo the tax code, that is a system that has not worked in a long long time. Eliminate the majority of deductions and stop trying to promote one lifestyle over another (such as owning homes and having kids) I take a blow it up and start over approach to the tax code but I realise this will most likly never happen.
Lastly we need to end the war on drugs legalise and tax use the proceeds to set up rehab centers and education. That alone will save the US taxpayer billions. Between prison over crowding for minor drug offenses (mainly minorities even though minorities are actualy less likely to use drugs that white kids) to police enforment and the entire black market that has grown up around the sale of illegal drugs.

The idea that complex social problems can be solved through the use of violence is the problem. Statism, like religion, is a mental virus that poisons humanity and slows progress. And calling your particular brand of violence "progressive" doesn't make it progressive and, it doesn't make it any less moral than someone elses favorite brand of violence.

As a matter of fact, statism IS a religion.

[Image: statism.jpg]

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 05:39 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(03-04-2013 05:34 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(21-03-2013 11:19 AM)Revenant77x Wrote:  Well here is a progressive response to some of the things stated so far. As far as the "economy" thats a nebulos semi interconnected group of statistics and factors but what we actualy do have a problem with is average worker pay being (adjusted for inflation) at one of its lowest points in history, and jobless/underemployment at record highs.
Over the last 30 years or so we have engaged in a conservative experiment where taxes and socail services are bad (see food banks and welfare) and maximum profits are good. The net result is the worst economic crash since the great depression. Taxes are at an all time low even with the recent increase on the top 1%. As a breif example of this in the recent election Mitt Romney released some tax returns where his rate was at 15% where as the average US worker pays closer to 40-50% once payroll state and sales tax are included. Lowering taxes has been tried and has failed horribly so lets try the one and only thing that has ever worked in countering widespread unemployment Government spending on infrasturcture. The benifits here are 2-fold. 1st off it infuses a lot of money into Local economies that stay in said comunities rather than tax cuts which tend to be just saved. 2ndly and more importantly 40-50% of the bridges in the USA are currently failing or close to failing without action in the next 5 years the top news story will be bridge collapses.
Next worker pay, when the minimum wage was started it was meant to be a "living wage" and it was $.19/hr it was supposed to be increased allong with inflation to keep it a living wage. This was never done due to scare tactics and false information by corporate intrests which always claim (falsely as every study has proven) that raising the minimum wage will cause layoffs or loss of profits. Adjusted for inflation and worker productivity that $.19 should right now be $33.50/hr. When we first set up this program the average CEO made roughly 10-20 times what the average worker did today the gulf is now closer to 300 times. http://ed.msnbc.com/_news/2012/01/12/101...chart?lite I apologise for the animation on said chart but it was the most apt for the point I was making.
Now even Beohner has been caught on camera admiting that there is no immediate deficit problem, borrowing is basicaly at 1 to 1 and we do have huge unemployment numbers so the answer is to do a much larger stimulus bill to get the economy moving again. Next we need to completly redo the tax code, that is a system that has not worked in a long long time. Eliminate the majority of deductions and stop trying to promote one lifestyle over another (such as owning homes and having kids) I take a blow it up and start over approach to the tax code but I realise this will most likly never happen.
Lastly we need to end the war on drugs legalise and tax use the proceeds to set up rehab centers and education. That alone will save the US taxpayer billions. Between prison over crowding for minor drug offenses (mainly minorities even though minorities are actualy less likely to use drugs that white kids) to police enforment and the entire black market that has grown up around the sale of illegal drugs.

The idea that complex social problems can be solved through the use of violence is the problem. Statism, like religion, is a mental virus that poisons humanity and slows progress. And calling your particular brand of violence "progressive" doesn't make it progressive and, it doesn't make it any less moral than someone elses favorite brand of violence.

As a matter of fact, statism IS a religion.

[Image: statism.jpg]

The results of anarchy

[Image: starving-children-africa.jpg]

We can keep trading inflamitory pics all night. I have ,on several occasions, stated not only my opinion but a route forward I have even invited you in no uncertain terms to state your solution and you admited you had none. So with that in mind I choose progressive statism because it is the best choice avalible.

(31-07-2014 04:37 PM)Luminon Wrote:  America is full of guns, but they're useless, because nobody has the courage to shoot an IRS agent in self-defense
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 06:06 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
Get rid of the "Federal" Reserve (which isn't even a division/bureau of the U.S. government) and all like institutions in every country on Earth! That'd be a start!!
Make that happen, or keep toiling in the dirt.

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 06:09 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(03-04-2013 05:39 PM)Revenant77x Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 05:34 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  The idea that complex social problems can be solved through the use of violence is the problem. Statism, like religion, is a mental virus that poisons humanity and slows progress. And calling your particular brand of violence "progressive" doesn't make it progressive and, it doesn't make it any less moral than someone elses favorite brand of violence.

As a matter of fact, statism IS a religion.

[Image: statism.jpg]

The results of anarchy

[Image: starving-children-africa.jpg]

We can keep trading inflamitory pics all night. I have ,on several occasions, stated not only my opinion but a route forward I have even invited you in no uncertain terms to state your solution and you admited you had none. So with that in mind I choose progressive statism because it is the best choice avalible.


If that's a picture from Somalia, that's nothing to do with anarchy. Somalia is not an anarchy any more than the US would be an atheist nation if all the churches burned. And if it's not a picture of Somalian children, it's a picture of how well statism works.

As solutions go, I've said that I don't profess to know how others should live their lives. That doesn't mean there is no solution to social problems, it means I'm not so arrogant as to think I am capable of determining how others should live.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 06:13 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(18-03-2013 08:08 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Manufacturing has fled this country because regulatory compliance and barriers to entry, all compliments of the state, have made it impossible to compete with foreign made products and for would be new businesses, simply impossible to start up.

I subscribe to the Business Insider and this came in today, maybe its finally turning around

http://e.businessinsider.com/public/1568282

“I am quite sure now that often, very often, in matters concerning religion and politics a man’s reasoning powers are not above the monkey’s.”~Mark Twain
“Ocean: A body of water occupying about two-thirds of a world made for man - who has no gills.”~ Ambrose Bierce
Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 06:19 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(03-04-2013 06:13 PM)Full Circle Wrote:  
(18-03-2013 08:08 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  Manufacturing has fled this country because regulatory compliance and barriers to entry, all compliments of the state, have made it impossible to compete with foreign made products and for would be new businesses, simply impossible to start up.

I subscribe to the Business Insider and this came in today, maybe its finally turning around

http://e.businessinsider.com/public/1568282

It would be nice to have some work return to Squanderville, erm, I mean the US.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 06:36 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
Now unless I'm totally wrong, the citizenry of the United States has, collectively, the largest buying capacity of any other country at the moment, or we're at least in the top 3, correct? So when a company wishes to sell, and sell big, they cater to American buyers. Would a law demanding that all those companies taking their labor over seas to save money stop doing so or be banned from selling their products in the U.S. work? ""300 million Americans, many of whom have money to spend on your product, have extended family members who need jobs. Provide them, or get the fuck out"". Ofcourse that's just a broad overview; a better written long form I leave to someone smart enough to do so. Obviously, you'd never get this kind of a law passed when those voting on it just got comped a trip to Tahiti, but IF you could, would something like it work?

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 06:43 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(03-04-2013 06:36 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Now unless I'm totally wrong, the citizenry of the United States has, collectively, the largest buying capacity of any other country at the moment, or we're at least in the top 3, correct? So when a company wishes to sell, and sell big, they cater to American buyers. Would a law demanding that all those companies taking their labor over seas to save money stop doing so or be banned from selling their products in the U.S. work? ""300 million Americans, many of whom have money to spend on your product, have extended family members who need jobs. Provide them, or get the fuck out"". Ofcourse that's just a broad overview; a better written long form I leave to someone smart enough to do so. Obviously, you'd never get this kind of a law passed when those voting on it just got comped a trip to Tahiti, but IF you could, would something like it work?


Why go to that much trouble? Might as well just take the direct approach and just decriminalize theft and blackmail for everyone. After all, if it's a good thing for the state to do, it's a good thing for everyone to do.

The beginning of wisdom is to call things by their right names. - Chinese Proverb
Visit this user's website Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
03-04-2013, 07:09 PM
RE: A debate/discussion with bbeljefe
(03-04-2013 06:43 PM)bbeljefe Wrote:  
(03-04-2013 06:36 PM)TheGulegon Wrote:  Now unless I'm totally wrong, the citizenry of the United States has, collectively, the largest buying capacity of any other country at the moment, or we're at least in the top 3, correct? So when a company wishes to sell, and sell big, they cater to American buyers. Would a law demanding that all those companies taking their labor over seas to save money stop doing so or be banned from selling their products in the U.S. work? ""300 million Americans, many of whom have money to spend on your product, have extended family members who need jobs. Provide them, or get the fuck out"". Ofcourse that's just a broad overview; a better written long form I leave to someone smart enough to do so. Obviously, you'd never get this kind of a law passed when those voting on it just got comped a trip to Tahiti, but IF you could, would something like it work?


Why go to that much trouble? Might as well just take the direct approach and just decriminalize theft and blackmail for everyone. After all, if it's a good thing for the state to do, it's a good thing for everyone to do.

I'd go to the trouble to set a precedent. Mutlinational companies will make they're money regardless how it wrecks this countries', or that countries' economies, or the people who'll go hungry now that their job has been moved to China, or where ever. It'd require a Government filled with elected officials who took their oath to the people seriously, which I don't know for sure exists anywhere, but I'd like to see laws passed (and the one I mentioned above might be a bad one for all I know, which is why I asked if it might work), and descisions made with us low-born folk in mind.
""That's right [cell phone company of your choosing] we've done the math. You'll still make a profit manufacturing here and selling here, just not as much as you would manufacturing There and selling here. If you don't care to employ our citizens not only can you sell to those you employ in your manufacturing plants, but one of your competitors will be glad to provide the service you once did.""
Having laws protecting the citizenry from getting fucked out of money that could be used to buy baby formula isn't a bad idea. I simply lack the wit to articulate a better ideaSad

Find all posts by this user
Like Post Quote this message in a reply
Post Reply
Forum Jump: